What to do about heavy rust around the outriggers

[vincereynard]

I was hoping you linked some glue/bolt/screw in scoops. It's not a bad idea at all in order to allow bigger holes.
But I'm going for the extra posh approach and getting some decent seals from Jamie. A root cause solution is worth doing when you intend to keep the car long term

It certainly makes more sense to stop the water entering in the first place. As for the "scoops", I'd make my own depending on the size of the drain holes.
Make a wooden / plastic "former" longer than required. Cover in some sort of release agent (silicone grease?). Hold in place over the hole by the bit not being covered. Layer of glass. Then pull the former away when its gone off.

[Tuga2112]

It certainly makes more sense to stop the water entering in the first place. As for the "scoops", I'd make my own depending on the size of the drain holes.
Make a wooden / plastic "former" longer than required. Cover in some sort of release agent (silicone grease?). Hold in place over the hole by the bit not being covered. Layer of glass. Then pull the former away when its gone off.

I like your thinking. I may end up doing just that, already have spare fibre glass from previous projects and making a wood wedge is trivial job.
In my case, virtually free upgrade.
Next time I'm under the car, I'm going to check clearance to see if the footwell is the lowest part of the car or not

[vincereynard]

On second thoughts I would probably use a suitable flat surface to makes some on the bench (in relative comfort). Then just stick them in place.

Then you would not need anything to hold the "former" still and less scrabbling about on your back!

Please remember this could all be BS as I've no idea where the holes are or what the surface is like.

[lotustonybassplayer]

As some of have seen on facebook I am in the process of repairing the outriggers , I have a question for those that have done the job. as originally they are bonded and pinned place at the bottom 25mm and the floor with the little lip. have you bonded the repair sections first to the tub ? and then welded them or just welded in the sections then do the best you can with the sealant along the bottom lip to the floor ? I have only had to make small sections so not a long length to bond as such. Thanks in advance

[dapinky]

Tony,

I had this dillemma when i did mine.... and decided that the originals were bonded in to the tub during manufactre purely as an expedient way to do it (but I may be wrong!).

As such, I did the welding first, then squirted a good bead of sikaflex along all joints and worked it into the gaps to stick it all in place..... I don't know if there is any better way to do it, but it worked for me.

[lotustonybassplayer]

Dave

thanks for your quick reply I might try both ways on my 2 "easier" repairs to see if it makes any difference. As this will be my virginal welding attempt, hopefully if I can make it a half decent job out of it and then that gives me the confidence to attempt the FOS jacking point repair

[Simon_P]

Don't forget that it is structural so it needs to be properly, welded and bonded.

Depending on the exact repair I would do the welding first as the heat will destroy the bond.

[Tuga2112]

As some of have seen on facebook I am in the process of repairing the outriggers , I have a question for those that have done the job. as originally they are bonded and pinned place at the bottom 25mm and the floor with the little lip. have you bonded the repair sections first to the tub ? and then welded them or just welded in the sections then do the best you can with the sealant along the bottom lip to the floor ? I have only had to make small sections so not a long length to bond as such. Thanks in advance

tony,

I had mine welded by my neighbour, (who has been welding cars and vans for longer than i been around) he did exactly the same that Pinky did. after that task, i was generous with the hammerite in order to ensure things will survive a while.

if simon is right, that will be 2 cars structurally weaker than ideal.

only thing i can add is that mine was in better condition than the pictures i saw of yours on fakebook. so, i suspect structurally speaking it was/is less to worry about (not that i was at all worried to start)

[epipete]

Having repaired the front outriggers a few years ago I deliberately ignored the more tricky rear ones, alas I've had to remove the trim from the hood stowage area for an unrelated issue and have had a glance down at the rear os outriggers. Oh dear, flakey rust it doesn't look to good.

I'm assuming that the NS outrigger is likely to be similar and understand that access is achieved by removal of the petrol tank!

I've perused this thread and much of it concerns the front outrigger repair, presumably because this is the easier job. What I'm trying to get my head around is the geometry.

When I remove the seats, carpets and all the trim, can I simply (bad choice of word) access the metal to cut all the rust out, how much is visible from within the cabin?

Is it just a case of fabricating a length of outrigger, chipping the old rusty sections out, welding the new sections in, bonding to the tub and then rust treating.

I'm trying to rehearse the project in my head before I start to disassemble, any procedural advice would be appreciated.

[rip]

I have come to a bit of a dead end with mine.
I knew it would be an expensive job & didn't really have the money until recently.
I found 3 possible candidates to repair it, all of whom declined interest.
I found a 4th who took a good look & seemed to know what was involved. They have estimated £7000-£9000 to fix the front of 1 side only. This is significantly more than the car is worth & the other side is probably almost as bad as are the rears.
The estimate is for 19 days' work. I am pretty sure most of this time is for the bonding & paint materials to cure.
I believe everything has a price. I can only think this is their price for a job they don't want?

Does anyone know of a repairer who can do this for a more reasonable cost? If not, I guess it is the end of the road for my Elan.

[dapinky]

Iain,

I have seen a variety of work required to repair these things, and cannot believe that any could be so bad as to require the level of work you describe.

Although mine weren't too bad, I cut out and replaced all 4 jacking points, and solidified everything else whilst i was there.... it took 2 days (and I don't work too fast, especially when welding!)

There is nowt difficult involved, and any decent welder can do it. It doesn't even need to be a mechanic - any metal fabricator should be glad of the work in the current climate - especially if it is a "weekend job" where he does a bit in between bigger jobs.

[Tuga2112]

Iain,

I have seen a variety of work required to repair these things, and cannot believe that any could be so bad as to require the level of work you describe.

Although mine weren't too bad, I cut out and replaced all 4 jacking points, and solidified everything else whilst i was there.... it took 2 days (and I don't work too fast, especially when welding!)

There is nowt difficult involved, and any decent welder can do it. It doesn't even need to be a mechanic - any metal fabricator should be glad of the work in the current climate - especially if it is a "weekend job" where he does a bit in between bigger jobs.

dont you need to remove the fibreglass underneath the door to access the sills in order to weld and reinforce the jacking points ?

i find it easy to believe that a welder would split the job into 2 or 3 tasks, and the cost of paying a body shop to put the fibreglass back like was originally added to the quote.. im very surprised you managed it in 2 days.
is there some way to remove those fibreglass panels without needing to re-glue or reconstruct the fibreglass that i am not aware of ?

i need to reinforce the jacking points on my elan too, im sure the rust has made its way there, but passes the mot because its not something you can see. i intend to do that next summer assuming that i end up getting a job by then.

[dapinky]

The jacking points are basically a metal box about 3" x 4" x 5" (IIRC - but really just a guess at the size!), one end of which has an M12 thread for the 'pin' which goes down through the fibreglass cill. The inner face of the 'box' is spot-welded to the steel panel (the one with the huge holes in it) which run longitudinally inside the fibreglass cill.

As such, the panel takes the weight when the car is jacked up - which is why it needs to be solid.

Once the seats, carpet and underfelt are out of the way, you can see the metal frame across the front footwell where the flat floor slopes up towards the pedals, along the cill, and back again at the rear of the seat (along the bulkhead).

My rear crossmember was in good condition, as was the front one - so i only needed to work on the big flat panel along the cill (incorporating the jacking points).

When you look at it, it is obvious that the whole metal bit is bonded to the fibreglass bodywork, but it isn't 'buried' in fibreglass. It is glued to it with Sikaflex (or whatever other PU adhesive was used!).

You can access any rusted bits from within the footwell, or from under the bulkhead (not so easy, but still possible) to cut them away. Then it is "just" a case of making up some new metal bits, and welding them to the non-rusted bits in the car.

My jacking points were made from some 3mm galvanised steel sheet I had in the garage, and the cill bits were made from some other galvanised steel plate I had (possibly the back of the old tumble drier, I can't remember!!!).

I plug welded some of it, seam welded the rest, and my welding is never going to win a beauty contest, but equally won't fall apart.... but as it isn't visible, i don't care.

From looking at other posts on this thread it is clear that making it 'original looking' is very possible for someone with better skills than I have - but good enough is, well, good enough!

[rip]

Iain,

I have seen a variety of work required to repair these things, and cannot believe that any could be so bad as to require the level of work you describe.

Although mine weren't too bad, I cut out and replaced all 4 jacking points, and solidified everything else whilst i was there.... it took 2 days (and I don't work too fast, especially when welding!)

There is nowt difficult involved, and any decent welder can do it. It doesn't even need to be a mechanic - any metal fabricator should be glad of the work in the current climate - especially if it is a "weekend job" where he does a bit in between bigger jobs.

The estimate shocked me yesterday to be honest, but you're reply has given me some optimism.
I am without work right now so would rather leave this, but its MOT is due next month & I really want it done first.
I would like to have a go at this myself but I don't have experience with a welder & don't have power in my garage either. Cutting away the rot should be no problem. I remember Surferphil mentioning that carbon fibre should be suitable for this? Maybe I can ask the advice of a member who we have not seen here recently..who builds F1 cars?

[Simon_P]

I have two cars to do - I have a plan!
Over the weekend I'll have a look and take some photos.

It does depend what needs doing but I'm thinking the job would be hundreds rather than thousands - Low hundreds if you do most of the work.

[rip]

I have two cars to do - I have a plan!
Over the weekend I'll have a look and take some photos.

It does depend what needs doing but I'm thinking the job would be hundreds rather than thousands - Low hundreds if you do most of the work.

That's very promising.
I have been thinking of what I could do myself.
I asked Josler about using CF. For those who don't know him, he is a member on here who builds Red Bull F1 chassis for a living, so knows more than most of us about using CF. His response was that wet lay up would not be strong enough. The method they use in F1 involves using moulds & oven baking, which is extremely expensive.
You can actually see a little daylight through the bodywork on mine, but this should only be a matter of laying some fresh fibreglass (or CF) over the top. A little messy but not too difficult.
Once cut away, I should be able to make accurate measurements of the outriggers & either get these done or have a go myself, then bond them in place. Surely I can shape & weld them away from the car then if they don't fit, either try again or find someone who can make them accurately?

[clemo]

Rip ,
It may sound obvious but try not to see this as one huge job . It is just a few much smaller ones . Prep work is not beyond you .

1 Remove all the seats , carpet , sound deadening.

2 Cut out the rust. As long as there is something to weld onto (which there will be) it is not an impossible job.

3 Mock up the missing parts with cardboard .

4 Get this made up by a metal fabricator.

5 Now if you don't fancy learning welding then a mobile mechanic type welder might be able to help.


Having seen what is involved for me step 5 is probably the only one i may shy away from. However the majority of what i assume needs replacing ( much like many others on here ) is internal . Around the speaker sections , holed side sections . None of which is visible . even if it was a complete mess it wouldn't matter . The carpet will cover it.

Give it a go .

[rip]

Clemo,

I had spent some time thinking about how to deal with it & what you suggest is what I intend to do. I like the way you have broken it into separate steps.
I have no way to get mains to my garage so the only problem was cutting out the old metal...so I now have a battery powered angle grinder.

The MOT runs out later this month. It will be the first time in my 13 years of ownership that the car will be SORNd.

[clemo]

I have a generator if you would like to borrow it. I can pallet it up to you?

[rip]

Thanks for the offer but I have the grinder which should be fine.
If I need to do any welding, I can take measurements & do it in the back garden. I wouldn't want to weld close to the car anyway.
I won't be starting it until the weather improves either.