Brake upgrades - is bigger better?

[ESM]

If you have no problems with the stock brakes there is no reason to do anything to the braking system. Reasons to change it are:<br><br>1) the stock setup can't dissipate the heat generated by multiple stops and fade occurs (a track day problem, unless you're a total nutter)<br><br>2) Reliability problems with the stock items<br><br>If you think that a 'big brake' upgrade will make the car stop faster under normal driving conditions then you're mistaken - this is only true if your stock brakes were faulty.<br><br>The maximum braking effort from a brake caliper is produced just as its associated tyre is about to lock. This is the same torque whether you have a 10 pot caliper and a 300mm disc or a one pot and a 256mm disc.  Most front only big brake upgrades actually increase stopping distance because they have bigger discs and bigger pot areas and so shift brake bias forward significantly, this reduces the braking effort at the rear and the rate at which the car's kinetic energy can be shed.<br><br>The advantage of big discs is that they dissipate the heat produced under repeated heavy braking more effectively.  The advantages of multipot calipers is that they are generally light and stiff compared to single pot items. They don't instrinically improve stopping distances   <br><br>If you don't believe me look here, especially here, here and here<br> (The last one is a brochure for StopTech but it covers the technical stuff on the bottom of page 2 and page 3)<br><br>The 15" Wilwood upgrade I'm touting in the Elan products section IS designed to match the balanced braking bias of the Elan.

[John_W]

[quote author=ElanScanMan link=board=suspension;num=1116235688;start=0#0 date=05/16/05 at 02:28:08]The 15" Wilwood upgrade I'm touting in the Elan products section IS designed to match the balanced braking bias of the Elan. [/quote]<br>[smiley=agree.gif] That's why I'm going for the Wilwoods. Three cheers for ElanScanMan and Brian MDB. [smiley=clap.gif]  [smiley=happyclap.gif] [smiley=deal.gif]  [smiley=luxhello.gif]<br><br>I have no problem with the braking performance when everything's working fine (ie just after servicing all the calipers). However I do have a problem that this happy situation does not last very long.<br><br>I place the problem down to the sliding single piston design of the brakes. Ever since I first encountered the concept on a crappy (new) Fiat 127 my father used to have I have hated it. Yes I know that lots of cars use it these days (presumably 'cos it's cheap to produce if not maintain [smiley=duh.gif]  [smiley=bs.gif]), but it still offends me. [smiley=constipated.gif]<br><br>Two pots per wheel ... minimum.<br><br>John <br><br>PS my front left siezed up on Thursday so I've got fixing that to look forward to this weekend.  :P  [smiley=helpsign.gif]

[Doug]

agree with you Alan, but bigger is better.  :P<br><br>the Elan had great brakes when new and I remember Motor Trend TV saying they were excellent 60-0.  They didn't comment on fade though  :-/<br><br>Flash forward and the Evo has the record for stopping distance for American sold cars.  If you don't think the Evo has "big brakes" then look again!<br><br>Why then can you take say a Honda with stock new brakes, test it and get the stopping distances; then throw on a big brake upgrade, retest and get significantly better braking and shorter distances . . . <br><br>I bring up this example to refute your claims Alan, not to be a true pisshole ( I think )

[Avonvilla]

Ok this is very confusing, thought Alan was way off the mark so went googling and too be honest he seems ( as usual ) to be spot on. If you can lock your brakes now then an upgrade will do next to nothing for stopping distances, it will reduce fade on constant use and of course gets around the maintenance issue but other than that nothing. Found this http://www.fd3s.net/brake_kit_install.html and countless other posts.<br>I sort of believe yet because of constant brain washing cant ? Help ! Anyone ? !

[F1 LOTUS]

If you're already able to lock all 4 wheels simultaneously at any speed AND maintain control there's no more braking ability left!...

[Avonvilla]

So why does anyone go the big brake route ? and why do they think it's better ? confused  :(

[Kjeld]

What timing! Marie just helped me install my Wilwoods + steel braided lines over the weekend. They are real pretty, but I am afraid Alan is correct. The big brakes feel differnet, but I doubt I am really stopping a lot faster or in a shorter distance. In the first 50-75% of the total braking, there is less pedal effort and more bite. The last part, leading up to locking the wheels, it is really no different than my stock (and very worn) brakes were. Bottom line, I still cannot lock the wheels.<br><br>Since I cannot measure these things, I do not know if the overall stopping distance is great, okay, or even dangerous. But I would sure feel a lot better if I knew I could lock the wheels if I wanted.<br><br>Are we trotting down the wrong path upgrading the brakes themselves? Is the master cylinder the weak link?<br><br>Why can't we stop these little cars?

[techlectic]

I am not that familiar with how stock brakes work when in good condition - I know that the brakes on my new Elan are NOT in optimum condition.<br><br>However, two days ago I took a drive in an Elan with Wilwood front brakes, and I can say with assurance that I have never been in a car that could stop faster.  It was unbelievable.<br><br>I want my car to do that.<br><br>Doug - how does the Elan with Wilwoods compare with the Evo?  Have you tried putting the brakes on in the same place at the same speed?

[Kjeld]

Unless you have ABS on your car, if the wheels cannot lock, how do you know you are stopping as fast as you can?<br><br>I might be, but I need to see the yardstick figures to believe it. Besides, I am obviously old school. In absence of ABS, I still like the idea of being in control of my braking up to and including, full lock.<br><br>Lastly, I would point to the gigantic rotors on Marie's car(about the same circumference as a wheel from a Mini Cooper) and  the ungodly sized Brembo calipers. HUGE. Same story though. Under full braking, dives sharply, feels great at first, but the wheels will still not lock.<br><br>Maybe I should just buy an ABS sticker for my dashboard, and let it go.<br>

[F1 LOTUS]

Kjeld<br>I can lock my Parada's without too much effort and there's plenty of feel to holding them near locking, I have 11.75" dia disc, currently I'm using Wilwood's Polymatrix 'Q' compound which seem to be quite hard and I've not tried to lock these, with Porterfield R4-S pads and Wilwood's 'D' compound (I think? Too soft for road use anyway!).<br>Which pads are you using, has everything been 'bedded-in'?<br>Does the brake pedal feel soild or is the pedal hitting the floor?

[F1 LOTUS]

Lost a line there somewhere :-[...<br><br>Kjeld<br>I can lock my Parada's without too much effort and there's plenty of feel to holding them near locking, I have 11.75" dia disc, currently I'm using Wilwood's Polymatrix 'Q' compound which seem to be quite hard and I've not tried to lock these, but with Porterfield R4-S pads or Wilwood's 'D' compound (I think? Too soft for road use anyway!) locking is definately achievable<br>.<br>Which pads are you using, has everything been 'bedded-in'?<br>Does the brake pedal feel soild or is the pedal hitting the floor?

[Doug]

yes, Kjeld, yer brakes are not working properly yet!  Bed-in the set-up and bleed them again if needed.  The Elan pedal will likely firm up a bit over the next few weeks with use.<br><br>I can lock mine when they are warm, but it is not too fun so I do not try to do it.  I can ride the brakes hard at near lock like I could never do with previous Elan brakes.<br><br>The Evo stops much better than the Elan, but that is because it has computers helping it--with ABS and Brake Force Distribution.<br><br><br><br>Now I still agree with Alan in theory, but not in practice.  The fact you can take a factory-new car and improve stopping distance with brake upgrade alone is proof -- it's probably proof of the imperfections inherent in OE brakes though . . . <br><br>Now if you guys are going to keep it up I may have to hook up the G-tech for stopping distance, throw the anchors out and give you some numbers.  Would be fun to get a distance shorter than that reported for stock brakes in the magazines though  ::)

[Doug]

[quote author=Dave M. link=board=suspension;num=1116235688;start=0#12 date=05/17/05 at 12:52:30]Yes, comparing apples to oranges, but just to say that most stock systems are entirely capable.[/quote]<br>yes, but add "if religiously kept in as-new condition!"<br><br>

[Kjeld]

Thanks for the encouragement. After the brake work last weekend, the pedal is high and firm. As for bed-in, we shall see. Maybe something unique about these Wilwood pads (Marie said they were high performance). But it is not my experience that bedding in new brakes has made that much of a difference in any other car.<br><br>In the meantime, not knowing a thing about it, I am betting the problem is an under engineered master cylinder. The Elan's low weight in conjunction with this massive swept brake area and modern calipers ought to grip better than this.

[Doug]

Kjeld, remember the pad area is almost identical from the Wilwood to the stock.  Yes there's more pistons and stuff  [smiley=crazy3.gif]

[F1 LOTUS]

[quote author=Kjeld link=board=suspension;num=1116235688;start=0#14 date=05/17/05 at 13:13:02]Thanks for the encouragement. After the brake work last weekend, the pedal is high and firm. As for bed-in, we shall see. Maybe something unique about these Wilwood pads (Marie said they were high performance). But it is not my experience that bedding in new brakes has made that much of a difference in any other car.<br><br>In the meantime, not knowing a thing about it, I am betting the problem is an under engineered master cylinder. The Elan's low weight in conjunction with this massive swept brake area and modern calipers ought to grip better than this.[/quote]<br><br>Which compound did you choose?<br>http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/003-DESC/index.asp<br><br>Here's some info' on bedding-in.<br>http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/008-TECH/index.asp

[F1 LOTUS]

[quote author=Brian_MDB link=board=suspension;num=1116235688;start=0#10 date=05/17/05 at 10:31:26]Lost a line there somewhere :-[...<br><br>Kjeld<br>I can lock my Parada's without too much effort and there's plenty of feel to holding them near locking, I have 11.75" dia disc, currently I'm using Wilwood's Polymatrix 'Q' compound which seem to be quite hard and I've not tried to lock these, but with Porterfield R4-S pads or Wilwood's 'D' compound (I think? Too soft for road use anyway!) locking is definately achievable<br>.<br>Which pads are you using, has everything been 'bedded-in'?<br>Does the brake pedal feel soild or is the pedal hitting the floor?[/quote]<br><br>The 'sticky' pads Wilwood first supplied me in error were the old 'Tan' compound (now 'T') not 'D' as stated above, don't use these on the street!

[ESM]

Ah some replies! I thought this thread was going to see tumbleweed skipping around and little else....<br><br>I agree with a lot of whats been said. Dave taks a lot of good sense - the stock brakes are designed for road not big sticky tyres and may not produce enough torque to maximise braking with those without way too much pedal pressure. I still believe you need to look at the bias as well to really minimise stopping distances.<br><br>Doug, If you look at one of my links (the last one I think) it contains a graph that shows measured stopping distances for a car with stock brakes and with various upgrades - in general the slap a big brake on and it'll be better type 'upgrades' lengthened the stopping distance. The EVO has a properly engineered braking system designed with big components, this is great for track use where the improved heat dissipation is necessary and is a visual selling point but the great brake performance is down to good design (including the abs software) not the use of big components alone.<br><br>Kjeld - I can lock the wheels of both my Elans with stock brakes, I reckon you probably have a non-caliper related problem. Bedding in can be an issue. Check you discs for a film or glaze (sometimes occurs with new pads) this can indicate a problem. If the contact patch between the pads and wheels is small (can be caused by slight lack of parallelism between the caliper and the disc or poor flatness of the pads) then hot spots occur poor friction and the glazing can occur. You may have a faulty master cylinder or servo but if these are working well the master cylinder displaces quite enough to operate these calipers. The symptom of too small a master cylinder is a long pedal. Check the vacuum pipe to the servo check the non-return valve is ok and the jubilee clip onto the plenum is tight. After you've been out in the car check the front wheels are the same temperature if they are not you may have a problem with a circuit in the master cylinder.<br>

[ESM]

I had a couple of motivations for adding this thread. The main one was that I've seen a couple of 'upgrades' mentioned recently that had, at least, the potential of being dangerous. The bigger discs/more pots/more pot area = better philosophy is fine but don't use it without understanding to change a system as critical as the brakes. Hopefully this thread will improve the understanding of braking system modifications.<br>