ESM Chips - Performance & discussion

[ESM]

Now that I know where the spark advance map, the power enrichment a/f ratio map and the boost maps are I think its time to get a PROM emulator, make up a definition file for one of the tuning programmes out there and get onto to a dyno and tune the thing properly. This will take a bit of time and investment but will get an optimised setup out of it at the end.<br><br>What do you think <br><br>- suspend chip sales and do the optimisations<br>- continue chip sales and offer free upgrades<br><br>?

[nchase]

Suspend chip sales and get it 'perfect'.<br><br>Not that you are offering any guarantees, but people don;t want to face expensive bills.  I would be prepared to pay more for a chip knowing that extra dev time had gone into it.<br><br>N

[ESM]

The current chips aren't a hazard - they just don't (apparently) offer the kind of power increase desired. The problem is that the mapping is too conservative.

[S Clough]

The permutations of modifications are just so high that one or even a few mappings would only cater for a very small percentage of users. We want bigger turbos, more boost and a simple remap of a standard car prom won't be enough long term.<br><br>My suggestion is to put the maps open source by writing a definition file and let people do their own thing via Tuner Pro.  If they blow their engines then there is no comeback.

[ESM]

I think a tuner file for people who have/want bigger turbos, injectors, MAP sensor... would be a great thing - but I don't know enough about the ECU to do that now. <br><br>However, I don't want to change my car in this way, I want to optimise the existing setup, in the knowledge that its a stong engine - based on the evidence of the heavily souped up Impulse RS cars that share the same engine and the many cars that have run with MBCs. A lot of owners want to upgrade the performance of the Elan to the standard of its contempary peers without undergoing  re-engineering of the engine. This is the constituency the chips are aimed at.

[Ian_W]

Looking to fit my Everest chip tomorrow, but I am sure I will have the same issues with a/f ratio killing the power. Have found this before with a MBC installed.<br><br>IMO better to suspend the sale of the chips, and correct the a/f ratio issues. As at the moment the chips seem to increase boost (more wear on turbo) with little power gains.<br><br>As for fitting bigger Turbo's, this leads to a slippery slope with lots of additional upgrades and expense.<br><br>Alot more power is the end result, but it's putting that power down which then becomes the problem. You don't want lots of wheel spin on a front wheel drive car. At the moment my car has a 2.5" exhaust fitted which gives mild boost creep, so instead of 0.65 Bar max it gives 0.75 bar max. I find with 100% throttle in 1st gear it produces a little bit of wheel spin. I'm with Alan upgrade the existing car and aim for a power output between 200-225Bhp. This will still create a seriously fast car without any handling problems due too much wheel spin.

[Sy V]

Alan<br><br>I'm with the majority here...suspend snd continue testing/development..<br>'ve still got 2 weeks off (before I start the new job) I'm happy to dedicate a chunk of that time to continuing trials etc.

[ESM]

I reckon that I'll have to do it all myself  :-/ I should be able to create an ECU definition file for enough of the tables for optimisation, although I'll have to establish what's involved in getting the data logging in TunerPro to support the Elan. <br><br>Once that's in place I'll understand the tuning software and emulator hardware (hopefully) well enough to help the dyno guy to get it mapped. <br><br>Its not going to be easy, cheap or quick.

[nchase]

Hey - that sounded like you've had enough.... keep up the good work. Tweaking chips was always going to be a long slippery slope - but even though I don;t have a chip yet, I think I speak for everyone..... we appreciate all the hard work.<br><br>N

[GaryJ]

I 2nd that. Really appreciate the hard work involved here and personally would understand (though I only speak for myself here) if the cost had to increase a bit. Sounds like it will be well worth it at the end.  ;)

[John_W]

Alan,<br>as far as I can see the mountain chips do exactly as you set out to do - provide additional boost in a more elegant way than using an MBC. You have succeeded in doing what you set out to do.  [smiley=thumb.gif] [smiley=thanx.gif]<br><br>The fact that I can't get mine to shove the effects of that increased boost to the wheels is my problem, which I'm trying to get to the bottom of. It might be as simple as putting on a new exhaust, but rather than just do that willy-nilly I'm trying to get information from forum members who have achieved extra power via the MBC route about what their set-ups are. I suspect that simply increasing boost isn't going to be the whole answer, but I'm trying to establish the facts before making any deductions (and spending money).<br><br>The chips DO provide extra boost without a doubt, and do it in a far more controlled manner than an MBC, and I'm happy that it "does what it says on the packet" to use the vernacular. Surely the fact that Stevo & Sy et al have found them to work well shows that as part of a general "tuned" set-up, they work very well.  <br><br>You seem to be saying that you now intend to develop the chips to be a "one-step tuning" solution rather than being part of a set of tuning mods. To me this sounds like a different story from what you set out to do (project creep). As you say, this would mean much further development, take a long time and could be expensive. Surely what you propose would amount to developing a whole new engine management system for the Elan, and has a much wider scope than your original project intended. This is a whole different "ball-game".<br><br>I say that the chips do what they're meant to do, we just have to understand how to use them (eg does the extra boost require a bigger exhaust, or a FDC-equivalent a/f ratio control). <br><br>John  

[Nige]

I'll offer my view.<br><br>Alan your chips at present provide the same function as an MBC by allowing increased boost, the raised level of the fuel cut goes part of the way towards providing the same functionality as an FCD but ultimately retains a fuel cut which in my view is good.  The only difference is that as an FCD clips the MAP sensor output at a specific level the ECU does not see boost above this level and consequently does not enrich the mixture above this level.  The benefit is more power because the engine is not running rich at high boost.  The significant downside is no control at all over mixture at high boost and a risk of running lean leading to detonation.  The risk may be small but the effect is large and it remains a compromise and a less than elegant solution.  The situation is further complicated by the other variables and limitations such as exhaust etc.  I make no claim of expertise in this area but that is my laymans analysis of what is going on.<br><br>How to take this forward?  I believe that optimising the existing set up is a useful boundary to stay within and would suit the majority of Elan owners out there.  For those who want to go down the bigger turbo, injectors etc the recent work done by Philbo and game on with the emerald and Haltech ECU options may offer the best way forward.  If this is a purely commercial venture (which I don't believe it is) then suspending sales and investing in R&D to subsequently offer a fully optimised product would be the only way forward.  However, I suggest that continuing chip sales, with a clear statement that development is ongoing would generate the necesary to continue development upgrades.  Moving closer to a fully optimised solution would be the end result, costs would need to be covered so upgrades may not be totally free but without sight of the costs I cannot offer a view beyond this.  I for one am willing to book some Dyno time, (because I want to do this anyway) and run the car with whatever chip(s) require evaluating and get data from the Dyno and elanscan, the only constraints are how much Dyno time I'm prepared to book and fitting it into the rest of the real life things that have to be done.<br><br>Nige  

[John_W]

[quote author=elanman link=board=upgrades;num=1092641209;start=30#31 date=08/20/04 at 03:22:08]I'll offer my view.<br>...<br><br>Nige   [/quote]<br> [smiley=agree.gif] I'm with Nige<br><br>John  ;D

[ESM]

I reckon, having driven all the chips (I haven't sent out anything that hasn't had the same maps in my own car) that there is unambigiously a performance hike - overtaking is just easier. Now ask me to show you hard data and I can't show anything unambiguous. The raw data ALDL provides isn't up to accurate power measures. I think dyno runs with the standard chips are required to quantify the benefit or lack of it. After this has been done I'll be in a position to judge if simply increasing the boost helps the power curve. I intended to get dynos done before selling anything and I should have stuck to that.  <br><br>I've sold some of things now and I feel an obligation to the people who bought them to guarantee some kind of change - other than increased fuel consumption at WOT. However, the idea of a further mountain of work, that costs money I don't have (BTW I'm still in loss with respect to the chip upgrades), takes all my spare time, and offers only an uncertain result/return doesn't fill me with joy.  <br>

[John_W]

[quote author=ElanScanMan link=board=upgrades;num=1092641209;start=30#33 date=08/20/04 at 04:24:31]... I think dyno runs with the standard chips are required to quantify the benefit or lack of it. After this has been done I'll be in a position to judge if simply increasing the boost helps the power curve. I intended to get dynos done before selling anything and I should have stuck to that.  <br>[/quote]<br><br>Alan, <br>lose the hair shirt - it doesn't fit you.  [smiley=shake_finger.gif]   What you've done is great.  [smiley=cheers.gif]<br><br>Your brain-surgery on the Elan started as a hobby/intellectual exercise, which has gone to interesting places, with the potential of going further, but only if it's still fun to take it there. <br><br>I agree that dyno runs would be very interesting, but I don't see why you have to do them all - surely this board should be a collaboration - and I don't see the great rush, as surely part of what we're doing is fun. <br><br>If I can't understand the electronics then at least I can help in the data gathering and analysis.<br><br>As I said in a previous post ( http://www.lotuselancentral.com/cgi-bin ... ;start=9#9 )<br>what data need to be gathered at a dyno place, so that I can 'phone up and explain what I want the guy to do?<br><br>John    ;)

[grahamec]

Alan<br>This is all sounding a little glum,my 2p worth is as follows : the chips I have been testing for you (S2 standard) are a definite improvement over stock the power delivery has altered and it's just more fun to drive, so,  <br>1. Send more chips out to us testers until your happy with the results,  <br>2.Sell the chips to owners who want them <br>3. Recoup your expenditure<br>4. Offer free or low cost upgrades when you are ready to.<br>All this as long as the new chips have no detrimental effect.<br>I'm happy to keep testing as long as you analyze the data.<br>Cheers<br>Grahame

[Nige]

There would appear to be a consensus of opinion forming here.<br><br>1.  What Alan has achieved is brilliant.<br><br>2.  The chips do exactly what they say on the tin, deliver more boost.<br><br>3.  Getting something leaves you wanting more <br><br>4.  The chips are a far better way of achieving a boost increase than an MBC<br><br>5.  Increased boost does not necessarily equate to the expected power increase when analysed objectively but subjectively the car is without doubt faster.  The key issue to develop now is the air/fuel ratio.  <br><br>6.  The chips are safe to use.<br><br>7.  Several of us are willing to continue to assist in developing this upgrade.<br><br>8.  Alan should not be out of pocket on this (Alan you should have received my cheque by now I hope?)<br><br>9.  Problems such as boost creep cannot be laid at the door of the chip.<br><br>Nige

[John_W]

[quote author=elanman link=board=upgrades;num=1092641209;start=30#36 date=08/20/04 at 06:21:47]8.  Alan should not be out of pocket on this (Alan you should have received my cheque by now I hope?)<br>[/quote]<br>Nige,<br>not the old "the cheque's in the post" promise?  [smiley=1poke.gif]<br><br>Apart from that, I agree with all you wrote.<br><br>John   ;D

[Nige]

It is, really.  [smiley=tomcat.gif]

[ESM]

Thanks guys but I can't see why anyone would fork over £100 for a performance upgrade when there is doubt over whether it upgrades performance  ::)<br><br>John I'd be delighted if you and/or others did baselining  dyno runs in order to evaluate the current chips. All that's required is a power curve for each chip of interest. If you have a ZIF socket you can leave the lid off the ECU and swap chips quickly and easily between runs. If/when it comes to actively tuning on a dyno I would have to do that because of the hardware/software and, dare I say it,  knowledge required - its a lot more techy. <br><br>Nige, the cheque arrived no bother - thanks  :)