Motor Rebuild – (hot-to-trot)

[Doc Fizzix]

Greg was very strict on not making a Flywheel that would be lesser in weight over 1.5 pounds than the stock one.

Costas, why did your mechanic say "no more than 1.5 pounds"?

Also, do your run a stock clutch and pressure plate? If not, does your clutch or pressure plate weigh less than stock?

Thanks much for your input

[Costas]

Greg was very strict on not making a Flywheel that would be lesser in weight over 1.5 pounds than the stock one.

Costas, why did your mechanic say "no more than 1.5 pounds"?

Also, do your run a stock clutch and pressure plate? If not, does your clutch or pressure plate weigh less than stock?

Thanks much for your input

Because lightening of the engines moving parts would help increasing RPM faster but overdoing would do it act Dumb, meaning that it would feel like if the wheels are spinning, thus the increase of RPM would be so fast that the power would not be possible to be delivered on road properly.

This the clutch I am using, its a 4 puk racing one and this past week after almost 1 year of use and 20.000km, it seems its worn off. I am replacing it next week with 4 puk again but made of kevlar.



Dont know at the moment of weight of it, but since I am replacing it, will infrom of new ones weight.

May I add here that before I tuned the engine through Sh4rk Project, it was running at 237hp and the stock clutch couldnt handle power under hard use. 2-3 laps at a racing track, getting hot, and it wasnt locking at all....

[Doc Fizzix]

Thanks much Costas

[Doc Fizzix]

Because lightening of the engines moving parts would help increasing RPM faster but overdoing would do it act Dumb, meaning that it would feel like if the wheels are spinning, thus the increase of RPM would be so fast that the power would not be possible to be delivered on road properly.

I was really wondering if he had done some calcualtions? Or was the 1.5 lbs (less mass) just a guess?

Also, how much "less" does your clutch and/or pressure plate weigh for original?

I am trying to get a feel for the "total" amound of mass change with your set-up.

We really need to hear from Dave_M on who he feels about his flywheel

[Costas]

I shall let you know as soon as I visit Greg at DSP next week.

But keep in mind that Greg's calculations involve as well the lightening of the rods in combination with the forged JE pistons but most of all the custom made lightening of the crank by almost 1.5 pounds giving shark fin shaped edges to it that allow a better rotation within engine oil apart of the less weight that helps to increase RPM faster.

The Balancing of all the parts together was the most important point of the whole procedure.

[Costas]

The acomplishment of all those lightenings was extra power at high revs as proven on dynograms and on driving, and all that comes faster faster faaaaaaasteeeeeeer

[Doc Fizzix]

Costas,

I knew you had lightened both the crank and the flywheel so I am thinking that with all your changes (including your lighter clutch) the rotational inertia for your system may be close the the same that I will get from using the Fidanza light weight flywheel.

I will know more when I weigh the flywheel when it get here and then I can do the calculations with the pressure plate and the clutch together.

Are you saying you lightened the crank by 1.5 lbs or the crank and flywheel combined

Thanks so much for your input, your information is extremely helpful and valuable

[Doc Fizzix]

Did you lighten the rods or replace them with different ones? I was looking into replacments.

[Costas]

Are you saying you lightened the crank by 1.5 lbs or the crank and flywheel combined

No, I meant seperately the crank and flywheel of 1.5-1.7 pounds each.

Also about the rods, they are stock ones, but were micro-weighted. found the lighter one and treated the other 3 to the same weight (no more than 5 grammars). Have to say that it is very crucial were to remove the weight from a rod even at sucj little quantities. Greg has pointed it out to me and described it on a roc but I cant put it in words.

[Doc Fizzix]

Thanks so much for your comments Costas, your information is very helpful

So you are talking about 3 lbs total. That is almost the same as the Fidanza flywheel but to be honest, it depends more on where that mass was located. I could try and find the total rotation inertia of the flywheel when I get is and then try to do some calculations on your system (just estimations using your images) in order to see how close they compare.

[Ashaman]

Well, hello Copernicus! I had no idea I was conversing with such an incredible visionary! You know, maybe if you had been around reading this board or took the trouble to do a little research you would find this stupid flywheel thing has been discussed many times.

You are the one playing the part of the bold pioneer here, so you can drop the "Oh, I am so awesome and my car r0xors so Asha'man just envies me" routine.

Why do you keep posting multiple replies to yourself anyway? Here is the way a board normally works. Someone posts, you respond. It generally isn't "Someone posts, then I post. Then I post again to say the same thing. Then I post again to say more about another part I didn't say very much the first time." Posting 3 posts for every reply doesn't somehow make you more right, it just takes up more space.

In case there is any doubt, I would like to clarify some things. 1. I think I know a decent amount about engines and forced induction based upon my 10+ years of owning, researching, modifying, and maintaining them. 2. I do not by any stretch know it all, and there are always going to be people out there who know more. I am interested in hearing from them, which was my original reason for joining this board 3. If you make your flywheel too light, your car will suck. 4. If you run higher boost, your car will rock....even with stock springs. This is not to say that there will not come a point where stronger valve springs are a benefit. However, without some analysis this may be beyond the point where a stock engine self-destructs anyway. Clear enough?

I am not going to drag this out anymore, so first things first, and I quote verbatim:

"The springs MUST to be stronger than the stock springs if you plan on increasing the boost in order to make sure that the pistons do not catch-up to the valves from the increased boost pressure pushing the valves down."

Now, where exactly would one find the option in your enlightened statements? Or do you forget the stuff you type as soon as you hit the "submit" key? Maybe I am just one step ahead of beginner ESL student or something, but I was under the impression the word "MUST" (in all caps no less) indicated some sort of dire need. Or am I just putting words in your mouth again?

Secondly, your valve theory has not shown to be a problem for me, DaveM, Costas (who you continually refer to), Philbo or any of the people I have read about on the Isuzu board over the past ~5 years that have run high boost levels. Oh but wait, you talked to "your guys" so there is the answer to that, right?

Let me ask you something, do you have ANY idea of the idiotic things that have been posted on boards from somebody's "tuner guy" over the years? Do you have any idea how moronic some so-called "tuners" are? Where do you think they get their opinions? Do you think it is somehow a gift from birth?

Or do you think maybe they do what I and others have done: Read, Research, experiment, etc? Now I know, you have some really, really good guys, they aren't like that. Well, great! Because in my quest for knowledge, I would like to know some hard numbers (as I said before).

Once again, if someone KNOWS enough to state this, then they must know why. Now maybe this next part is just me, but I would think this would be somebody who is fluent with programs such as Pro/E, Fluidity, etc....and has done the calculations to find out at what point specific mods become necessary, and what the benefit/outcome will be. They should have then verified this through experience to make sure it is accurate in the real world.

See, now this way dumb people like me can understand such the many complicated principles you have brought to this thread such as "Mass" and "pressure" and better understand how to cheer you on towards your goals.

Now I'll stop my pooping so you can get back out there and carry that torch!

[Doc Fizzix]

I am not going to drag this out anymore, so first things first, and I quote verbatim:

"The springs MUST to be stronger than the stock springs if you plan on increasing the boost in order to make sure that the pistons do not catch-up to the valves from the increased boost pressure pushing the valves down."

I totally apologize but you are using someone else words (not mine), as stated this is what Don from R/D Valve Springs said to me on the phone so I posted it.

You are the one playing the part of the bold pioneer here, so you can drop the "Oh, I am so awesome and my car r0xors so Asha'man just envies me" routine.

I have done nothing more than to share my experience and let people know a little about what I am doing, that is all! I thought that this was a forum for sharing information about the Lotus Elan, where have I said in this forum that my car is "awesome" or "my car r0xors"? I am just sharing information so please forgive me.

Secondly, your valve theory has not shown to be a problem for me, DaveM, Costas (who you continually refer to), Philbo or any of the people I have read about on the Isuzu board over the past ~5 years that have run high boost levels. Oh but wait, you talked to "your guys" so there is the answer to that, right?

Very good point! But, how do you know they are not loosing some power at the top of the curve? Maybe there is some valve float and we do not know it without compairing to someone who has stronger valve springs. Is that not how you learn? Our calculation show there maybe some valve float with higher than normal boost levels, maybe my dynos will show us all some valuble information, what is wrong with exploring the posibility and disucssing it in the forum, I want to learn more about this and I do not understand how my attempt to build my motor with stronger valve springs can upset you so much. I could be totally wrong, but so could you. Why not build the motor and then find out who was right, why critisize and attack someone for trying? This is very strange and shows a total lack of vision.

[Doc Fizzix]

What is important in life:

[Doc Fizzix]

[Doc Fizzix]

what I know best: high performance go-karts!







p.s. all information is written on a Mac

[F1 LOTUS]

Play nicely boys


This website has a lot of interesting dynographs illustrating the effects of various tweaks on engines similar to ours, including the effects of cam timing, head flowing etc.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno.asp

[Ashaman]

Oh great, this is too funny....you may not believe this but I swear I had no idea this was you DocFizzix.

I was just being sarcastic about about the "my car r0xors" bit because I thought this must be the attitude of this "LotusM100" guy since he was accusing me of just wanting to poop on your thread/project or whatever for no apparent reason. It sounded like that was the case...why else would somebody say something like that?

Now that I know who this is, I am sure that wasn't it at all, but you probably thought I was just attacking you because I have disagreed with past threads you had going....right?

Well I just want to let you know that I had no idea, and that wasn't at all the case. Honestly (and I don't really mean this as an insult) if I would have known it was you I wouldn't have posted at all.

So I am sorry about that, I am not just trying to bash you and/or your thread. Please scratch the paragraph about you thinking I am bashing you out of envy, I think I was totally wrong on that. It isn't some ego thing, my perspective (which has known to be biased) was just that I threw in my thoughts and was accused of being having some ulterior motive for doing so. Whatever the case, my intent was not to launch an attack. I am sorry if I have done so with my sarcastic follow-up.

I don't know, and I haven't "proven" anything; I don't work in a lab. I only know what works for me and read what has worked for others.

You have my "permission" to carry on and I will stop distracting from your thread (if you will let me)

[Doc Fizzix]

Oh great, this is too funny....you may not believe this but I swear I had no idea this was you DocFizzix.

I was just being sarcastic about about the "my car r0xors" bit because I thought this must be the attitude of this "LotusM100" guy since he was accusing me of just wanting to poop on your thread/project or whatever for no apparent reason. It sounded like that was the case...why else would somebody say something like that?

It does not matter if I am "LotusM100" or DocFizzix, this type of attack should not take place on this posting board. It takes away from the credibility of the forum and is very distasteful with all these personal attacks that take place these days. If you are sincerely apologizing then I suggest you remove your posting.

[Costas]

I dont think that this arguement has any meaning anymore, and above all it doesnt help to anything else other than damage the image of LEC.

If you two really want to get this going on, I would suggest to resolve it through PMs.

Not to mention that I am trying to figure out if I am accused of anything as well since I noticed my name mentioned several times, but i fail to follow this arguement and get a clue out of it.

Costas

[Doc Fizzix]

Removed - already discussed above