Advice on Elan Prices

[Jackonicko]

1) It is felt that the discussion of prices is contentious, and if unchecked, tends to lead to unpleasantness.
2) It is felt that commenting on the prices of cars 'advertised' on LEC might jeopardise the chances of a member maximising his achieved price.
3) Some believe that talking about the current state of prices influences those prices and tends to 'talk them down' and would (like RayD, perhaps?) want to ban any such discussion.
4) Other members believe that providing information on prices serves a useful function for new members and new buyers - on the basis that markets work best when buyers and sellers know and understand what prices are doing. That information is the vital lubricant that makes a market work properly.

After some initial difficulties, to their very great credit, several of the mods (notably Nige, Dapinky, and others) came up with a compromise under which all discussion of prices would be banned, except in this one discrete and distinct thread. That should keep this contentious subject out of other threads (especially selling threads), but will provide a platform for anyone (not just me) who wishes to discuss prices to do so, while allowing those who don't want to discuss them to avoid the issue.

The thread does aim to give advice on prices, and that advice is based on an extensive analysis. It is also caveated.

It is not true to say that: "As far as Jackonicko is concerned, at the present time he can say what he likes without fear of contradiction."

Anyone who has an opinion on prices is free to post whatever they like on this thread, whether they are agreeing or disagreeing. The only thing that I object to is your attempt to muzzle any discussion of prices. This is the one place where we can discuss them, and I'm happy with and grateful for that compromise. If you don't like it, then don't read it.

I don't view this thread as my personal fiefdom, and nor should anyone else.

Nor is anyone being directed here in 'glowing terms' - there are just some straightforward reminders that price discussion is banned generally, with a pointer to this thread as the appropriate location for such discussion.

It's not ideal - I'd personally want to be able to answer when someone asks "why isn't my car selling, what price should I be asking?" I do see, though, that can be contentious. Asking and answering such questions here is a useful compromise.


Nige,

How about if a member wants advice on the price of his or her car, and asks directly?

[Nige]

Nige,

How about if a member wants advice on the price of his or her car, and asks directly?

The question may be asked publicly, but the answer should always be given privately. It's up to the recipient of the information whether they choose to make it public.

[Rogerf]

This is all well and good but before all this so called PRICING, valuation of these cars there wasn't any problem selling.I know we've got to expect a downturn in sales but this doen't need to be encouraged.The way it's going Elans are going to be worthless.Im sure the people selling from this site would have nogatiated a sale by now if it wer'nt for threads like this.
Just my thoughts
Roger

[Monty]

Nick,

I don’t have the slightest interest in discussing the price of cars, or for that matter the price of anything else.

If you search for the word in my posts you’ll find I’ve used it 2 or 3 times since I started in 2006 ... until today that is.

I disagree with Jackonicko having his own section on the forum and it being brought to newcomer’s attention in glowing terms.

But, if people think otherwise, I’ll gladly go along with it.

Regards

Ray

with Ray,

I`ve not read this whole thread as it is a BS thread hence why i don`t get involved, there has always been discusions on pricing way before Jon came along and actually find it very sad for a person to be obsessed with pricing. You can not take ebay a serious place for pricing, it`s very simple to get a guide on the prices of Elans just visit Piston heads, Auto trader and the best place is here in the for sale section. This forum doesn`t need somebody consitantly go on about pricing.
It`s a good job i turned down being a Mod as this would be the 1st thread to hit the s**t bin.

Stop making things complicated.

BTW thats just IMHO of course

[theelanman]

chaps...
I understand that this was done to stop the repetition of the same words of wisdom from jacko every time something came up for sale....
no other reason.......
I like most believe that asking prices are asking prices and should not be discussed by others.....
if the vendor want £1 million then so be it.....it will either sell or not...it is not up to anyone to try to alter the vendors opinion.....
hes got me at it now...only on here once in a while at the mo and im talking bollox too...
cheers
g

[martin_bailey_1]

Let's face it folks....... the topic of Elan prices is always going to be emotive ....... and people's viewpoints can often be somewhat biased/blinkered (the bias largely depending on whether they're buying, or selling )

For example.... let's look at a car that hasn't (to the best of my knowledge) been discussed on the forum:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0349052095

As you can see, it's currently sat on Ebay, at £1650, with 1 day to run on the auction.

However, having wandered past it a considerable number of times whilst taking my 'lunchtime constitutionals', I can verify that it's also sat on the dealer's forecourt, with a windscreen price of £4400.

So, firstly...... What is this car actually 'worth' ? ....... £1650 ? ....... £4400 ? ...... or will we only find out when the final bid is placed on Wednesday evening, and we see what someone's actually willing to pay !

Secondly ....... and here's an interesting moral dilemma for you........ let's assume that you have a friend that wants to buy an Elan. All things being equal, do you advise them to:
a) bid in the ebay auction, to get the car for the best(?) possible price.
or
b) go to the dealer and pay the screen price ?

Interesting one eh ? ........ option 'a' might perhaps see a new Elan owner welcomed to the fold, with much rejoicing over their 'bargain' purchase.
..... but option 'b' would surely be better in terms of 'holding up' Elan prices and making existing owners feel better?

Answers on a postcard please ......................

Cheers,

Martin.

PS...... and just imagine how complicated this would be if the dealer was also your friend.... or a fellow LEC member.....or both....... AAAARRRGHHH !!

[Jackonicko]

Martin,

£4400 looks high for that car. We'll see what people are actually prepared to pay tomorrow, I guess. I'd guess that it will be somewhere around £2,500, give or take.


Monty,

With respect, if you haven't read the thread, then your opinion is no more than simple prejudice. Thats just in MY opinion, of course...... And you can keep your 'finding it sad' that I'm supposedly 'obsessed with pricing'. I'm content that by being aware of price trends I've helped a number of buyers pay fair prices for their Elans, and have helped a number of sellers to get a quick sale and a fair price.

I look at asking prices on Pistonheads, Car and Classic, and Autotrader, not just eBay. But an asking price is just that, and Pistonheads prices are not an accurate reflection of the prices people really pay, because they are a starting point around which buyers and sellers inevitably haggle.


RogerF,

I have enormous sympathy with the problems you're having at the moment. It's simply a dreadful time to be selling a car. But it's simply not true to pretend that "but before all this so called PRICING, valuation of these cars there wasn't any problem selling."

That's not true, old chap.

Elan prices have been slowly but steadily coming down over the past few years. A more sudden fall, and a more generally dead market this year have f*** all to do with "Threads like these" and everything to do with a recession. New car sales are down by more than 25%, and there has been a commensurate effect on second hand cars, especially luxury and sports cars. There aren't as many buyers, so supply is out-stripping supply. That means lower prices.

It is true that people like me have been helping buyers to work out what cars are actually fetching (just as many Elanners help buyers avoid buying a car with problems). Many sellers would rather find a mug who's prepared to pay more than a car is worth, and some would happily sell a car with faults, and would resent those faults being pointed out.

In this market, if a seller wants to negotiate a successful sale, then rather than urging censorship of threads like this, perhaps he should reduce his price until its attractive enough to tempt someone to part with their hard-earned cash, or wait until the market is better.


Gareth,

What date is it, mate?

Discussion of asking prices gives buyers and sellers information. Information makes for a better market mechanism, and helps to ensure that prices are fair to both buyers and sellers.

[Elanlover]

if the vendor want £1 million then so be it.....it will either sell or not...

Personally, I think mine is worth that. But I've got plenty of time to hunt down a buyer before I'm tired of the car Also, I tend not to think of this thread (or any other for that matter) as "advice" on prices. What is beign posted here are "opinions". That does not qualify as advice. Opinions are a dime a dozen as the saying goes. I would consider comments on prices to be "advice" only if the person giving it was:

1) An experienced buyer of Elans with at least 10 purchases and sales under their belt so they can comment with experience (experience is the root of sound and useful advice)
2) Asked directly for their advice by someone who's not just reading comments in a forum

Anyone bought and sold a dozen or so Elans lately???? Thought not I can review what cars are being offered for and what price they sold at and report the trends. Doesn't make me an expert in what the car can or cannot be sold for. Just a good reader.

So, opine away everyone

[Jackonicko]

The 'document' now runs to 446 entries - including 35 'real world' achieved prices, and many more 'achieved top bids' (that didn't reach reserve). In many cases the ads are now dated, and in many cases (about 150!) I have PDFs of the ads.

It's VERY far from perfect, but it does give a useful indicator of asking and achieved prices.

It's available to anyone who wants it.

[Nickydee]

There is no doubt that people turn to this site like I did recently to get advice on purchasing an Elan. There is no question that the fact the forum was so active and the wealth of discussion, knowledge and resources available helped galvanise my decision to buy an Elan.

I was aware of debate re pricing prior and did receive some comments from shall we say the more vocal members. Perhaps more importantly I did not view at least two cars that were some distance from me on the basis of reports from other members of the forum who has seen them.

Like any car there is range of values depending on condition history mileage etc and I don’t think anybody would be naive enough to expect to pay the same for a cherished club members car than a car on ebay which has not been seen by anybody able to give an accurate assessment of its condition . It genuinely accepted that ebay is often a place of last resort for a seller. As analogy we all know that are reprocessed house sold at auction is going to achieve less than a house in better cosmetic condition sold by private treaty. This doesn’t make the auction price wrong or not valid but simply an adjustment needs to be made to reflect the different circumstances.
My opinion is that the price achieved on unseen cars particularly as condition the greatest effect on price with used Elans apart from the SE/ S2distinction need to be considered with caution. None the less no matter how imperfect the information gleaned from ebay or other sources it has its place but it is important that there is debate to help new members. Essentially if anyone feels that the information on this thread is skewed than you should voice their opinion. I appreciate that price discussion is boring/irrelevant for many people but it is useful to prospective buyers.

For me the price debate did not lead to me wanting to pay less for an Elan. Cheap cars usually need more work. I decided to pay more for a car that needed and hopefully will continue to need little work but I was only able to make an informed discussion after spending a considerable amount time reading the posts on the forum and weighing up the costs of and time of putting a cheap car right compared with buying a better example. It’s for this reason I think the price debate is healthy.
I feel that there is danger that if the information on prices is suppressed than someone may buy a car on the back of the advice on this site and then later find out they have paid too much which will not endear somebody to the forum. Surely new members who are active and take part in group buys and monthly meetings are valuable than ex members who have sold their cars and moved on. Hence it important to direct prospective purchasers to the section on price and in the event of price discussion being banned that this must be made very clear to new users of the site.

On a more positive note has anybody thought about trying to promote the forum and Elans as clearly if demand for the cars can be increased with supply limited than prices can only go one way. It seems to me the car is a hidden gem. Perhaps its worthwhile trying to persuade the Classic Car press to do a buyer’s guide – the last one I recall was Performance Car six or seven years ago. In my experience journalists are lazy and if they are given copy on plate, with details of a potential photoshoot than usually respond especially in respect of a car which has not featured in classic car press and is affordable.

Regards

Nick

[M100_DMM]

Perhaps its worthwhile trying to persuade the Classic Car press to do a buyer’s guide – the last one I recall was Performance Car six or seven years ago.
Nick

There was a buyer's guide in the September, 2008, issue of Classic & Sportscar, featuring LEC's very own Dave Eds and Surferphil.

[Dave Eds]

Perhaps its worthwhile trying to persuade the Classic Car press to do a buyer’s guide – the last one I recall was Performance Car six or seven years ago. In my experience journalists are lazy and if they are given copy on plate, with details of a potential photoshoot than usually respond especially in respect of a car which has not featured in classic car press and is affordable.

Regards

Nick

Jacko's a journalist - he won't agree that he's lazy!

I recall a four page article in Classic and Sportscar Sept 08 with 4 Elans and a couple of dodgy blokes from LEC.

Edit - pipped by nano-seconds

[max and andy]

The two magazine articles that sold the Elan first to us where Classic & Sports Car September 08. Classics Cars For Sale August 07. The first mentioned made
us decide on an Elan. Its a full 4 page spread and very useful for a buyer. I wish i could print it off and post it. A&M Great minds. That's the first time we saw LEC advertised.

[Dave Eds]

Don't tempt me M&A!

[Nickydee]

Perhaps its worthwhile trying to persuade the Classic Car press to do a buyer’s guide – the last one I recall was Performance Car six or seven years ago. In my experience journalists are lazy and if they are given copy on plate, with details of a potential photoshoot than usually respond especially in respect of a car which has not featured in classic car press and is affordable.

Regards

Nick

Jacko's a journalist - he won't agree that he's lazy!

I recall a four page article in Classic and Sportscar Sept 08 with 4 Elans and a couple of dodgy blokes from LEC.

Edit - pipped by nano-seconds

Jackos not lazy just very busy ..... with his spreadsheets!

[texas2201]

last buyers guide in feb 2009 Classics Monthly by Jason dawes off the telly using Spotomotive of Salisbury's M100 in frost silver which is still for sale as I passed it this weekend

but no mention of LEC

quite a positive and good buyers guide with only a couple of errors

Just noticed that they recoloured the Elan in a shade of yellow for the front cover?

Martin

[Jackonicko]

Journos lazy? That's a lazy stereotype! But because it is often accurate, it's tempting to use it.

In my case?

Probably true - but I am an award-winning lazy journo!

On a more serious note, in a changing market, buyers guide price tables are hard to produce because prices may change very rapidly, and not in a predictable or linear fashion (this year is plainly not anything like 2008, and 2010 may be different again).

Had I compiled a Parker's type table of price against year against mileage, it would have needed updating every few weeks, as prices have twanged upwards and downwards like Madonna's underpants.

Moreover, how do you go about compiling such a guide? Ask the owners? M'n'A will tell you that any S2 is a bargain at anything below £10k, while I will be more..... 'pessimistic'.

Base it on recent achieved prices on eBay and by asking people what they paid and what they sold for? That's what I do, and it provokes howls of anguish and controversy.

And I've been keeping track of prices for months, and have devoted an unhealthy amount of time to it - how is the working auto journo going to do it when his editor is paying him NUJ rates for the piece, and wants it in a fortnight?

[ailwyn]

There aren't as many buyers, so supply is out-stripping supply.

I am an award-winning lazy journo!

Speaks volumes really

You must surely be a multi-award winner.... _________ of the year (too many to list, so the reader is invited to fill in the blank, hyphenated words are acceptable).

[RayD]

Jon,

...just to answer the points you've made referring to me.....

Some believe that talking about the current state of prices influences those prices and tends to 'talk them down' and would (like RayD, perhaps?) want to ban any such discussion.

It would never occur to me to want to ban it.

...... while allowing those who don't want to discuss them to avoid the issue.

I’d like to avoid it altogether but my posts have been moved from a different thread.

The thread does aim to give advice on prices, and that advice is based on an extensive analysis.

I don’t understand how you can give advice on prices, you can get a car at any price. You're pretending to give advice on the value of cars and I’m not sure you have all you need to be able to do it.

It is not true to say that: "As far as Jackonicko is concerned, at the present time he can say what he likes without fear of contradiction."

It was my understanding there was to be no arguing ... I mis-understood the rule. Even now it's been clarified it's not something I'd recommend

I don't view this thread as my personal fiefdom, and nor should anyone else.

Again, I now understand that is the case, although it would never have been started were it not for your comments on other posts. It may not have been started for you but it was started because of you.

Nor is anyone being directed here in 'glowing terms' - there are just some straightforward reminders that price discussion is banned generally, with a pointer to this thread as the appropriate location for such discussion.

I think Nige’s post did mention it in glowing terms.

With my personal opinion of it you’ll have to appreciate it doesn’t have to glow too much for me to think someone is going over the top.

Ray

[Jackonicko]

Ailwyn,

Ooh! You've caught me out with a Typo. Well done.

I said supply outstrips supply when I meant supply outstrips demand. That must mean that I'm utterly beneath your contempt. (Yet you were kind enough to express it anyway. Thank you so much.)




Ray D,

I had quite understood from what you had written (on this and other threads) that you were in favour of banning any discussion of prices. I apologise if my misinterpretation of that has caused you any anxiety or discomfort.

Thank you for your explanation, and for remaining polite and civilised despite your 'less than glowing' opinion of this thread and its subject matter. It really is much appreciated.

You're an example to us all..... (well to some of us, anyway).