drawings & permissions for new garage

[dapinky]

Well, it's sort-of Elan related, as I want a new home for the car(s)....

I have got past the very first hurdle and obtained 'Pre-Application Advice' - gone are the days when you could just have a friendly chat with someone from the Planning Dept - now you have to submit all sorts of paperwork and make a payment - which I have done with the desired result that my application will receive consideration as it fits with the Development Plan for Pembrokeshire and would have no negative impact on the neighbourhood.

The next stage is to submit a 'full' planning application - which requires more plans and further payment......

.... I am happy that I could produce such plans (and purchase the required 'maps' as required) for minimal cost.

BUT

Then it starts to get beyond my level of understanding/competence.....

Building Regs/Control.

As the garage (single storey, 2.1m internal height, 6m x 7m floorspace) exceeds 30m2 floor area, and will be within the minimum distances from the current house (albeit, detached from it), but is a 'non-habitable' construction - it will require Building Regs compliance. (more money!).

My understanding is that the drawings need to be submitted by a recognised/qualified person (clearly that isn't me!) with suitable design/construction pictures/calculations/material specs etc etc.

Whilst i could download (or otherwise purchase) suitable software to prepare such plans - and (possibly) do the necessary calculations for structural strength from info on the interweb - I seem to understand that I will still need to submit them via someone with letters after their name (at even more cost).

Having watched Fawlty Towers' second episode ("The Builders"), I am fully aware that O'Reillys building contractors could do all the necessary maths and work for a wad of cash in hand - but I want it to last longer than half an hour after they drive away into the sunset with my hard-earned in their pocket .

Google search is my friend, and shows that there are a few companies localy who will take all the stress out of the whole process (undoubtably at even more cost!!).

So....

.... is there anyone here who can tell me what such costs should be? Is it dependent on location?... Priced per job, or by the hour?.... been there, done that, can lend me a tee-shirt?

Is it worth me bothering with doing the Planning App myself, and then get someone in, or just get them to do the lot?

Will I still need a seperate electrician to put wires in, or will the Part P of the Building Regs get taken care of as part of the whole process? (I am 'competent' to do the wiring, but not qualified to sign anything off).

Any ideas?????

[lotusflasherman]

Dave,
What I'd do is do a scale drawing of what I wanted on a big sheet of graph paper that I could show to builders to give me a 'ball-park figure' on costs..
A lot of builders who specialise in house extensions etc have a friendly architect who can turn your drawing into something that can go to planning and the builder can use to build it... have a look on here for a few of those builders ..https://www.mybuilder.com/

Ask the builder what's he done locally lately so you can go have a look at it/them ... Do so, but also knock on the door and talk to his client and find out how smoothly things went. I'm sure they won't mind. It's then your judgement on price and feedback who you choose..

(A few years ago I re-roofed the dining room of our house to install 6 Velux windows improve insulation levels. I found if I used 'a Competent Roofer' I wouldn't have to involve the Building Control Officer as they were (supposed to be) competent to do it without his involvement. Don't know if there is a similar scheme for garages.. I'd have thought a house roof more important to 'control' than a garage but there's not much logic behind some of these rules & regs.)

One of my sons is Supervising Electrician on various big contracts so called him and he says "Yes, it's Part P so Registered Electrician will need to sign it off but find one to talk to (in local pub?) and discuss what he's happy for you to do. He will need to test it and sign it off. Most will be happy for you to do the 'first fix' (install trunking, wiring, and switch plates, socket boxes etc. where you want them!) Some will let you 'second fix' (put wires into sockets and switches) others might not. I let my son 'second fix' for me as he's superfast and gets switches and sockets at trade, which is much cheaper than I can get them (anywhere!) and he doesn't add markup.

[lotusrepair]

If you are capable then go for the minimum requirements and then upgrade after you have been inspected. Items such as put in more electrical outlets later. Install more lighting later.

I had the builder do just what was needed to pass inspection and then I finished the interior walls and ceilings. Figure out what items you want that raise red flags with the inspectors. Avoid these if you can.

I am in the USA and our building codes vary from state to state and in each state from county to county. A builder you are hiring to do the work will know what details are needed in the permit process and what details can be left out. I do not know if your planning dept will tell you what builders they have problems with. Choose a builder wisely. You have allot riding on them. Ask to see the other work they are doing in the area. Always.. how much do they want up front? The best builders need little up front money. Too many builders need your deposit to use to finish the last project they are completing. Builders who are financial stable do not need allot of money upfront. In the USA the person who pulls the permit is responsible for everything. Many builders try and get the homeowner to get the permit and make the homeowner liable for all everything.

Chris

[Saltire]

When we did our (house) extension, we used a local architect to do the drawings. Which was fine, and worked well for what was a quite complex build. At a later date, when I decided to remove the two single doors on the front of the (double) garage and replace them with one single door, I used the same builder, who I know and trust. He advised that I didn’t need to get further drawings; he would sort it out. And he did, even when Wiltshire Council - bless them - decided that we needed a structural engineer to calculate the size of RSJ required above the new door (apparently “a stuffing big one” wasn’t sufficiently accurate for them).

My advice is to find a good builder, ideally through personal recommendation. The good ones are busy, so be prepared to wait. Talk the project through with him/her, with a sketch if possible, and ask them to suggest how to deal with planning and building regs. In out experience again, the planning folks give you a cursory once over, while the BR chaps are considerably more thorough.

And you *will* need a qualified electrician as Phil describes, but you can do a lot of the prep work yourself.

Feel free to PM if you want to discuss further.

[dapinky]

Phil,

I have scale 'drawings' which I produced on 'floorplanner.com', and can easily draft up the side/front elevations to present to builders.....

.... which is where the issues start - I feel that I am capable of doing the work myself (but probably physically past it in reality!), and want to keep costs down where I can.

As such, i would like to do whatever I can, and sub-contract individual bits out, ie, groundworks, blockwork, roofing etc..... but maybe I'm better off just getting Paddy from down the boozer to come round and do the lot with his cousins (but I need to find Paddy first!). Overall I don't think I'll save a lot anyway.

I appreciate that a sparky is going to need to sign it off, but again, at what stage? It can't be tested until it's installed (obviously), and it will need installing in phases during the build - no point in building foundations, walls etc without running the armoured cable through before pouring concrete - or do I just stuff a length of plastic conduit through and then pull the wire later??? (I suppose that actually makes logical sense now I think of it).

Time for 2nd fix doesn't worry me - I'd rather do it as and when I decide to fit an extra socket or 2........ or can i get as far as having a sparky sign off everything between the main board in the house and the box in the garage, and then fit the ring/lighting afterwards? Or does that also need signing off? {I suppose in theory I could have a single socket on a ring main, and a single bulb on the lighting, get it signed off, then extend the power points (in compliance with regs) as long as I'm not adding a new circuit......}

Hmmm - it aint as easy as it used to be.......

[dapinky]

Chris & Jonathan,

your posts appeared whilst I was typing my response to Phil.....

I think we're all saying "Find a good builder, and be guided by what he says"

[Fredjohn]

Dave just a word of warning. When your electrician does the test and inspection, he is required to test the whole circuit, not just the new bits. This means the existing wiring in the house.
We had new sockets, rewired kitchen and new consumer unit followed by test and a pass. 4 months later we had a conservatory built with electrics and another test. Failed! And not due to the new conservatory bits! Work that out!

Turned out the earth rod was "not visible" so unable to tell if long enough. The first tester cross checked and decided it was OK. The second didn't. Net result I ignored it and just carried on.

[lotusflasherman]

Really depends if you want to 'stay legal' and be able to sell the property or not. Any new installation comes under Part P. Joe Public can change like for like but no additions. I'm a qualified Electrical Engineer, Member of the IET and give definitive advice on the Wiring Regs but still can't put in additions myself - which shows how stupid are the people we elect to Parliament..
My son takes on complex Scanner installations at Addenbrooks Hospital and phones a friend (Dad) for an answer to any problems but under Part P he has to sign off anything new in my house.
Any addition makes it an illegal installation so you might as well do it all youself and F' the stupid regs... but... need to make sure you've got the right circuit protection for any trailing leads outside the garage for pressure washers etc... PM me if you need info Dave.

(Put a wood burning stove in my lounge and then found out was illegal as I'm not a 'qualified wood burning stove puter in' because only they understand CO poisoning due to lack of air flow. Bloody stupid MP's!)

[Nickydee]

Hi Dave

Contrary to others i think you are more than capable of submitting the drawings at least for planning yourself which will be a considerable cost saving. However do bear in mind that building a detached garage of less than 30 square metres floor area would not normally need building regulations approval. Assuming you have the room for it to be detached then 30 sq m is a reasonable size space for mancave/elan tinkering activities so worth considering this route.


If it is larger this or attached to the house than that you will require building regs, Many people skimp on this for garages and loft conversions, just getting planning and you are unlikely to have any immediate difficulties if you choose this route. .However the difficulty comes when want sell your property as it be picked up by the solicitors so unless you intend to stay put to the end of your days than I wouldn't recommend it. If nothing else it will render all your hard work worthless and may put off a potential purchaser altogether so not recommended.

i sure you could produce Building Regs drawings with the help of google and a few pointers from those in the know along the way. as far as i know you dont need any qualifications to submit plans. Indeed there are many Plansmiths out there who have no formal qualifications.

inn terms of the work than you can do it all apart from the electrical work which is technically illegal. You are only allowed to change a socket/light fitting on an existing circuit. Building regs require certificates and since very few electricians are prepared to certify other peoples work so you are stuck with them doing the first and second fix but a basic installation could always be extended later.

Even if building regs are not required than technically you are breaking the law if you undertake the work competently and it broadly complies with all the regulations which are not rocket science than there is little risk of prosecution. Clearly if you are woefully negligent and someone gets hurt than you could expect to have the book thrown at you. Please bear in mind that Screwfix, Tool station sell thousands of meters of cable, consumer boards etc daily and never ask for proof of qualification.

to conclude a complete self build including plan preparation for a detached garage of less of 30 sq m, constructed to standard that would broadly comply with the building regs (remember google is your friend) even through not required would be my preferred route.

[dapinky]

Thanks all,

Phil, Regs are NOT meant to make life easy - no doubt whoever wrote them was getting a kickback from some pressure group or other. I am fully capable of the instalation (my qualifications are old, but wires and electrons are still as they were - but I'm not "qualified" to sign anything off.

Nick, I hear what you say, and am aware of the 30m2 limit - no worry for a single car and tinkering room, but as I have the Triumph as well, I need cover for (at least) 2 cars + workspace..... and land isn't the issue.

I had considered a 4m x 7.5m building as it wouldn't need Building Control (I could site it far enough from my current walls and land border to fit in without) - but it wouldn't be a size I was happy with, and in the greater scheme of things, the actual construction cost differences should be minimal to make it bigger (except I have to excavate more soil, pour more concrete and buy more blocks!

I think I shall prepare the Planning Application myself, but speak to some builders to get estimates for them building what I want and preparing the 'technical' plans/diagrams.... this is further complicated as I want a flat roof with lawn over the top (it will be set into a bank) - even though I have been told that I can still have a pitched roof if I want it (less than 4m to ridgeline).... and the steel/concrete roof will need some calculations to keep the council happy.

I had considered getting permission for a 5x6 building (and not needing Building Regs (except for the electric install)), and acidentally making it bigger when getting the groundworks done.... judicial ply lining would keep it down to that size until it fell off and revealed a 0.5m cavity..... but I really want to do it 'right'.

Ah well, I'll get the Yellow Pages out (or Google).

[lotusrepair]

Roof Truss-- Look into a gambrel style roof truss. You get a second floor without much change to the roof. You can keep the traditional roof line and just get an attic truss. The cost difference is not that much. Make the most of the attic space.

Chris

[MPx]

Yes Dave - professional fees can quickly mount up. No experience of the Welsh system, but plenty in England. I hink what you need will depend on thescope of the works. I'd be surprised if you need much for a garage no matter what the size... In 1990 I did the drawings myself for a garage extension, submitted my application for PP for about £100, paid another £300 for council inspections (building control), and that was it.

By 2012 we were doing a much more significant whole house project and the professionals involved included:
Site surveryor (for as is drawings)
Architect (for design plans)
Architectural assistant (for detail plans)
Structural engineer (loadings and materials specifications)
Building Regs (private company not council as I mentioned at Combe)

Between them they burnt through well over £10k....but then I suppose it was a big project.

I got the "builder" to just do the base structure groundworks, walls, roof, plastering. I did Electrics, heating, plumbing, finishes, bathrooms, kitchen, internal doors, etc., etc. For the electrics I did the first fix before the ceilings/floors went in and got the electricians in to inspect the standard of work (design/components/cables clipped at 400 centres/ etc). After the plastering I did the second fix then got the same electricians back to do a full part P test. Still cost a few £00 but not the £000s they wanted for doing the whole job.

In our case we were well over budget even with me doing most of the labour so I suppose it was a necessity, but actually it was more about me doing what I wanted and getting satisfaction from the result. The joys of retirement eh?! Have fun with it...

[Simon_P]

Dave,

You can do all of the electrical work yourself.

All work should be done in accordance with BS7671

It is only "Notifiable work" that needs to be done in compliance with building regulations and if completed by a non-registered person (eg you) it must signed off by building control. It can now also be certified by a registered compitent person ie an electrician

Part P is quite straight forward - Kitchens, bathrooms, new consumer units, and new circuits amount to "Notifiable Work"

[theelanman]

Dave
I can help........
Im a Civil/Structural Designer.......
I cant get to you but if you send me the info I'll give you a generic design.....and drawings if you want
do you want single skin or cavity wall?.....flat or pitched roof?.....steel or timber roof?......wriggly tin or slate roof?....insulated?.....
its all a case of how much you want to spend?........
you do know that if you build it out of timber....its classed a temporary and non of this form of planning is required



cheers
G

[dapinky]

Chris,
Attic space is not applicable - it will be a flat roof as it is being sunk into a bank and have grass over the top, to maintain the same lawn that we currently have.

Mike,
As spoken at Castle Combe - it all changed since I did the garage at my old house..... Advice from council was free, plans were sketched, building control wasn't strictly needed...... and I was 30 years younger which meant I could do it myself.

Simon,
The electrics will have at least an element of 'notifiable work' as i will need to run a new circuit from the main board out to the garage (seperate CU). I can't work out though if I add a ring and lighting circuit from the garage CU at a later date, is that notifiable? or is it just getting that box from the main CU that is notifiable? - either way, something will need signing off.

Gareth,
A kind offer, thank you. You ask many relevant questions, and that is part of my problem.... I don't have a realistic idea of what is best, what is good enough, what costs a few ££ and what costs £££££££.
Basically, I understand that it will *need* cavity walls due to the floor area - but does that apply to 'non-habitable' buildings? - - just going on what I have found on t'interweb I don't know. Most online 'projects' show totally free-standing buildings (and I understand that most such garages are made that way) - but mine will be set into a bank (so excavation is required... just mud/clay/rubble - nowt solid).... therefor insulation isn't an issue to me, but keeping water out is (as well as having at least 2 of the walls strong enough to hold back the remaining slope/hydrostatic pressure). I have seen various options from block walls/poured concrete with rebar, then the 'sandwich' of single skin block with poured waterproof concrete and rebar down the middle and over the roof?? EPDM covering? Internal tanking?
Roof made from poured concrete/beam & block/Steel frame etc (with a lawn reinstated over the top - real or artificial, Angie hasn't told me yet!) - or a timber stressed roof with decking over????
Or do I just get a man with JCB to dig/flatten the site (it will be about 50m3 of spoil to go off-site - that's an in-ground measurement, so probably 80m3), pour a concrete slab, chuck up some retaining walls (with french drain /perforated pipe etc), and put up a timber building.... thus doing away with all the hassle - but not being what i really want....

...ah, decisions, decisions.

I'm sure I can get the pictures for PP myself, but is there any point if I then need to get 'proper' ones done for Building Control - it will just be duplication of effort, and no saving of ££? If I get the drawings/calculations done and approved by BC, and then present them to a builder, is there any saving to be made? Is it 'best' to get a few builders in to give me all-in estimates (but no doubt, their profit will be increased and my costs will go up a bit).

I suppose it would get the ball rolling at the council if I start it off myself and get the PP - but in the greater scheme of things, I will still have to wait for a builder to be availlable to do the work......

G - I'll send you the document I put in to the council for Pre-Planning advice - if you get a chance to give me a few ideas of what next, I'd appreciate it....

[maz_r]

Can you not just ‘throw’ one of these up Dave?

Especially as they seem to be round the corner from you!

[theelanman]

gabion retaining wall to the rear of it......
it'll provide support and enough drainage to keep it dry.......

[theelanman]

basically FYI a gabion 'basket' is just a chicken wire basket full of stone.....1m x 1m.....give or take half a meter......
youd probably need 2 layers......so 12 baskets.......@ 6m wide......buried about 300mm down
just a guess with out seeing it.......but I presume the bank to be lower than your eaves height

[Simon_P]

Dave,
As I understand it the lighting and sockets from the CU would constitute new circuits, so in practice you would need one socket and one light. The extension to n sockets and n lights is the non Notifiable bit.

Since you need to notify building control/ electrician before work starts you may as well do the whole lot and benefit from the free advice.