LEC Expeditionary Force in Cyprus

[cliff]

For a minute this morning Cliff I nearly called you to find out how good your spoken Greek was! Cheers

Pete

If you were in a bar and needing a beer, no problem. For the rest, way over my head!

I used a compressor driven, pressure bleeder when I fitted my brakes and had no issues. Not sure if I am reading the report correctly, but looks like the right rear is the problem. Has the self adjustment been set up correctly? If so then as everyone else has said, bleeding or proportioning valves.

[epipete]

Aye, I have an Eazi-bleed in the garage, I may have a go at it tomorrow.

[GeoffSmith]

Unlike the OEMs, I found them really easy to bleed. I didn't use my Eezibleed ('cause I couldn't find it) but just a long clear tube into a vodka bottle as I couldn't find Sarah to pump the pedal.

[epipete]

Took the car back to the mechanic this morning (being ax they were closed over the weekend). This pm picked the car up, was assured the OSR was bled, much air was removed and it was now fine. So back to the MoT station - fail!!!! This time it was the NSR that was under strength!!!!

Cor blimey Gov, these Cypriots sure are giving me the run around, back to the mechanic who was not too pleased to say the least, he suggested that if I gave him the keys he would take it back to the MoT man and have a few gentle words, though, I think, he might have been a little bit more forceful than that. So I left him with the car and the keys, I'd like to be a fly on the wall in that meeting!

[Rambo]

Cor blimey Gov, these Cypriots sure are giving me the run around !

Sounds like they're taking the episkopi

[epipete]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

I have got to admit though that the car felt better on the drive both to and from the MoT Station than it ever has, the engine was purring gently and had better response on the accelerator and the brakes felt much more positive, so I remain optimistic!

[dapinky]

Pete,

It sounds like you are having a bit of a mare with the authoritites - hopefully if your own mechanic 'speaks nicely' to the tester, it will get sorted - it does appaear that they are just trying to be difficult for the sake of it. Are they trying to get the business to 'sort it out' for you, as maybe they believe that you are doing the work yourself and don't have a 'friendly local' on side??

When you say that the RNS is now a problem, did they tell you the numbers? Is is worse than it was before, or just that the OS is now 'too good' and the NS/OS balance is out?

[epipete]

The NS/OS balance is out though I didn't get the figures this time the OS was considered very good the NS poor.

It is either the proportioning valves or, more likely, the garage bled the OS to get it right and then they should have done the others in sequence but I suspect that they didn't! I don't want the mechanic getting hacked off with me/the car so early in our relationship.

Currently enjoying a breakfast with all the incumbant cancer risks that are concomitant before I go back to find out the result of their 'discussions!

[dapinky]

I would expect a good bleed will sort it all out (or even introduce a little air into the 'good' one to get the balance acceptable).... it's soooo much easier with adjustable bias valves

[epipete]

Well I've just returned from the garage, the car has failed yet again on the balance between the two rear sides.

Ok back to basics; the system comprises

A. A master cylinder
B. Various brake hoses
C. Various brake pipes
D. Two brake proportioning valves
E. Four brake calipers
F. Brake Pads

What can we rule out?

If the master cylinder was under performing I'd expect all the brakes to be malfunctioning, so it's not that then?
The hoses and pipes are all sound with no loss of fluid anywhere.
The OEM front calipers (which appear to be braking fine) are only a couple of years old and the tests shows braking from these to be in Spec.
The PNM Calipers are new and so should also be beyond reproach, indeed the original test above shows the left (nsr) to be performing well within spec, it's only gone downhill since the OSR was bled.
The pads are new on the back and minimal use on the front.

Which only leaves the valves but with a good test on the NSR (again, as above) this was ok before bleeding the OSR (which is now good) so there doesn't seem to be much wrong with them. (I have suggested the remove them both and give them a good clean.)

Thoughts please?

There is much gnashing of teeth, tugging of beards and scratching of heads, mind you it doesn't help that my mechanic and the mot station are rival businesses and I suspect the latter may well be grinning at the discomfort he is producing!

[dapinky]

I wouldn't automatically disregard the M/C - it is a diagonally-split system, so if one half has got a bit of gunge in it, then it will affect only one half of the rear (but the opposite front at the same time)..... having said that, I'd be surprised if that were the problem.

Again, whilst the hoses look okay, they may be suffering from an internal rubber 'bulge' which is invisible from outside, but causing a (partial) internal blockage - this usually occurs following damage to the hose (have you or you garage 'clamped' them off to keep fluid in the system whilst working downstream?).

I still suspect air in the system, or duff prop valves.

The valves could always be removed and replaced with a straight pipe as a VERY temporary idea - it will elliminate them from the equation, and give full pressure to the rear callipers which WILL pass the test for efficiency - but may still show an imballance OS/NS.

(I think that if it were me, i'd remove the valves, bleed the rear callipers and try again).

[epipete]

Well today has been the day from hell! Not only is progress stalled on the Lotus but, in addition to a series of some annoying and some dire non motoring issues/problems my, 2 week owned, Freelander 2 has developed a problem!!!

This evening whilst searching for a taverns I took the car through a reasonably deep puddle thereafter the car developed a grinding noise and an intermittent shudder which I think is on the OSF it feels like a grabbing sensation or momentary lack of traction! I've crawled underneath and drive shaft and gaiters look ok so I'm fearing bad things. A visit back to the dealer is on the cards pity as I'm a bit confrontation averse but I am getting hacked off.

[Fredjohn]

Oh dear Pete, sounds like everything is braking....or not!
The Freelander problem could be water ingress into the ABS/traction control system, causing one brake to come on of it's own accord, hence the "grinding/grabbing" on one corner.

Get the hair dryer out.......

[epipete]

Funnily enough I like your pun, however it does feel as though everything is braking, not just cars. I guess that as we have moved away it is a little like drawing a line in the sand, I can't quite explain that, but I think because we are buying so many new (or used as per the LR) items it comes as a shock the lack of quality or longevity that is designed into products now. I guess I'm at the time of life when I don't want to keep spending money replacing items again and again.

[epipete]

Ok. Today - good news! The Élan passed its mot (and I have a piece of paper to prove it, albeit written in Greek which means I cant actually read it). But I have assurances that it is good.

On picking up the car this morning, my mechanic expressed his concern that the bias was now too far to the rear and was suggesting going down the adjustable valve route but sent me down the mot station to get dome readings. To me it felt fine but the brake pedal travel is further than I'm used to. These are as per the attached pic, doesn't mean much to me, can anyone comment?

Big thanks to Dave who came to my rescue with regard to the proportioning valves, so aside from the MC that is the entire braking system replaced over the last couple of years.

Now to get I registered

Incidentally, the Landrover problem was also resolved last week - seems I'd put the wrong fuel in to it, there is a lack of colour coordination on the pumps here, Green pumps sometimes mean Diesel but not always!

[Fredjohn]

Great news on the Elan and the Freelander!!

Give us a picture and we'll comment.

The Greek sun is obviously getting to you.....have another beer!!!

[epipete]

Nah John, it was just too big to attach. I thought I'd adjust it and add it back in before anyone noticed, you're just too quick

[Fredjohn]

Pete
I'll start the ball rolling then: I'm no expert on this, so perhaps shouldn't comment (I'll delete this post if proven to be totally off the mark so as not to confuse).

It seems to me the proportioning valves are either not working or have been fitted backwards. The Force (N) readings are all broadly similar, averaging around 1550-1600. The rears should be about 30% of the front, so about 500-600.

Dave would not have sent you valves that don't work, so they may be fitted backwards. Whether this is possible and still have working brakes, I don't know.

No doubt Dave will be here very soon and correct my erroneous comments!!!!!

[dapinky]

Pete,

Good news! - well done for perseverence.

As far as your 'concerns' go, I have some observations:-

1) the brake pedal travel has incresed due to the extra fluid used at the rear callipers (there is a larger piston surface area to move, so it needs more volume of fluid to get the same lateral distance).

2) this will give you some indication as to whether the smaller bore MC would be a good idea - it will give the pedal even more distance to travel - but does increase the 'feel' of the brakes overall.

3) The rear bias will have increased by default (with everything else left the same), as the rear brakes are now more efficient, and the fronts are the same - so the percentages shift.

4) The ways round this are numerous (if you consider any to be necessary) - the 'best' way would be to increase the efficiency at the front (Hi-Spec callipers), but alternatively, fit adjustable bias valves for now, knowing that whatever you do in the future, it can all be balanced up to suit your needs. Then again, you could go for the smaller MC, which will give an improvement (in efficiency) to both front and rear, but the fixed bias valves will mean that there is more improvement to the front than the rear - thus the bias will shift forward.

5) Anything else is possible, with a big enough chequebook, or an open enough mind.


Personally, I'd drive it for a while and see how it feels under 'normal' use - it is hard to assess 'bias' without driving it - the static test is just that - static - there is no weight transference.

Under normal 'heavy' braking, the weight gets thrown to the front which *may* cause the rear wheels to lock up - only driving it will tell! (luckilly you have access to a nice long runway at Akrotiri which would be an ideal test track with loads of safe space - you just need to get the RAF to allow you on).

[epipete]

John, thanks for that, it is something I hadn't considered.

Dave, again thanks. Does John's consideration sound plausible to you as it does to me?

Pete