Poor customer service from SJ Sportscars

[dapinky]

Poor service from SJ Sportscars

TL/DR = I've had (what I consider to be) very poor service from James and Steve at SJ Sportscars - your choice, but proceed with caution if something goes wrong!!!

First things first, I am writing this post as an “individual customer” of SJ Sportscars, and as a simple member of this forum, NOT in my capacity as Admin of the group. It is intended to relate my personal dealings with a supplier where I received (what I consider to be) very poor Customer Service where promises were made, not met, and then reneged upon. It is NOT intended to influence anyone else where to shop, but to caution you that they seem to be unwilling to offer even basic Customer Service.

I am writing this post with a bit of a heavy heart as I really don't like to say bad things about a company that I have used for decades, and (despite others saying they had received a below-par service) never had a major issue.

I know that people have views on the (seemingly high) shipping costs, but they are clearly displayed, and as they are often the only people listing something, they can charge what the market will pay.

Anyway, my story starts back in January 2023 when I was buying lots of parts for Angies Elan (which many will know, I purchased as needing a complete re-build having been standing on a driveway for 7 years). Clearly it was a pretty long shopping list, and came to over £3k in receipts, and having plenty of time available whilst recovering from surgery, I spent a lot of time researching the best (not always the cheapest, but usually!) suppliers for everything I was to buy.

Many of the parts are the same cost from many places, so it was as much a case of what was in stock vs what needed to be ordered.

I ended up with just over £400 worth of stuff from SJ Sportscars, which was ordered online in a number of orders (although 2 of them were delivered together). Not the biggest order in the world, but one of many I have made over the years.

Specifically, I ordered a pair of rear discs/hubs as they had them in stock for a price I thought to be reasonable, bearing in mind that they had been unavailable for a fair while. I ordered them because I wanted new units on the car, not because I "needed" them - other that the fact that they would benefit from a skim (£20 at a local workshop) and one wheel bolt hole had been drilled and tapped to take an M14 bolt - easily sorted correctly at the same local workshop.
I didn't order the bearings from SJ's as they wanted £15 a side and they are easily available on ebay... I got a pair of Febi-Bilstein 03474 bearings for £16.10..... BOGOF!

The discs were delivered along with a load of other suspension bits on 25th January. They were put on the shelf as I was not physically up to doing a lot on the car until the end of March, and then it was slow progress.

I didn't actually get to the rear suspension and brakes until July, and then a few other things needed sorting before I could actually drive the car (other than in and out of the garage to sort the handbrake as I had to turn the car round). I fitted the new bearings to the new hubs on the bench, and then fitted them to the car using the settings in the WSM.

It wasn't until 11th August that I actually drove the car, and it's first trip was to the MOT garage. Although it passed the MOT, the whole car felt "wrong" but only in a minor way - it simply felt like a wheel was a bit square/buckled/out of balance. Upon return home I swapped the wheels for my Elan, and the problem persisted.

I checked everything and the front end was fine, but the back wasn't. I assumed that it was the wheel bearings not being fitted "square" in the housing, so removed the off-side hub and removed/replaced (with another new set) the bearings, then re-installed the unit. It made no difference.

At that time I had already looked for (and found) my dial gauge to check it properly, but it hadn't fared well over the past 10+ years since being used, and had decided to fall apart in the box - nowt to do with the heavy stuff I put on top, it just broke. I had ordered a new one and was patiently waiting.

Then I became aware of a similar issue which had been encountered with a pair of new discs/hubs from another customer - this was discussed on Facebook, and no supplier was mentioned.

I spoke to John and established (privately, not on open posts) that his had also come from SJ's and at about the same time.

By now it was a couple of weeks after the MOT test and the dial gauge duly arrived and showed that one disc had a run-out of ~0.8mm, whilst the other side had a run out of 0.15mm. By comparison, I refitted my old discs (still pitted and rusted), and found that one had a run-out of 0.04mm and one was 0.05....... the Lotus figures give a maximum run-out of 0.1mm. Clearly, the old ones were well within tolerance, the new ones were not - one was only slightly out (but still out!) and the other was really far out.

I filmed the discs in situ, and phoned SJ's where I spoke to James.

During the phone call, James told me that there had been a few issues and that they were no longer supplying units as there were too many which were wrong (I wonder how many have been fitted which are slightly wrong, like one of mine, but not enough to notice straight away? - and what will happen if they haven't done any sort of 'recall' on them and then an accident occurs). He said that they were getting a new batch made and that they would be about a month. I accepted that, and agreed that I'd wait a month for a replacement pair. He said that they'd also be fitting new bearings in the replacements and they would be sent out 'ready to fit'.

We discussed return of the defective items, and he said it wasn't necessary at this stage. However, I did offer to return them for their examination if they required them.

I then sent him an email to confirm the conversation points, and attached all 4 videos of the new and old discs.

2 days later I established that the postage cost (to me) was going to be £18 to send the units fully insured. I was not prepared to send then uninsured at my responsibility, and sent an email asking if they wished to send me a label for courier collection, or how they wished to proceed, as their courier may well be far cheaper.

I received no reply, nor any further communication from anyone at the company.

After 2 months I made contact with James at SJ's asking for a progress report. I was told that I had not returned the old discs as promised, and that new ones were in stock waiting to be sent out to me.

I asked why I hadn't received information on how they wished me to return the defective units, and wondered why I hadn't been informed that they had new ones in stock. I considered that to be quite poor customer service from them to be holding items they knew I had paid for and hadn't told me they had them.

They basically said it was my fault for not returning the defective ones sooner.

I then stated that I had no confidence in their ability to provide 'good' items, as it had now been twice the time they promised, I had heard nothing, and wanted to claim a refund. I again asked how they wanted to proceed in regards to the old units.

I heard nothing further that day, but next morning noticed that I had received a payment to my PayPal account for the price of the discs. I then received an email saying that a credit had been made for the discs.

I again asked about how to return the defective ones, and about the delivery cost of the discs and also the bearings which had been fitted, and now cannot be re-utilised.

The reply I got was (directly quoted here!):-

The refund is for the 2 discs. These were the faulty items, the bearings are not at fault.

We do not want the discs back.

Bin them.

Almost immediately, I received a message to say that no delivery was charged on the order, so no refund was appropriate, and that as I hadn't bought the bearings from them, it wasn't their problem.

My reply was that they had originally accepted the order as part of a bigger order, so a portion of the shipping cost was allocated to the discs (being the heavy items in the package), and that the bearings had been fitted and were now no-longer useable. They needed to be fitted to use the item (and find it to be defective), and they had previously stated that they would be providing bearings to me (which clearly I didn't require as I had, in effect, rejected the items and obtained a refund). I asked if he had spoken to Steve about this, or had made a unilateral decision, as it would have been my next move to speak to Steve directly.

I received a very curt email (addressing me as "David", which is something only my mother did!) stating that, yes, he had spoken to Steve and this was the final word:-

The email quoted the wrong legislation for return of faulty goods by saying I should have returned them at my expense within 30 days......

.... he (they) said that the choice to buy bearings elsewhere wasn't their problem, even though they were prepared to fit new bearings to the new discs for me, as that wasn't happening, it was my choice and my problem.

....he said that as I now don't have to spend any money/inconvenience to return the defective discs, and had been given a refund, this was "more than fair". (So I now have to dispose of them at my inconvenience instead!)....

.... he said that I can remove the bearings using a punch and retain them for future use, so there was no financial loss. Well, if he thinks that re-use of something which is an interference fit is appropriate, that is his choice - but I wouldn't be doing it.... and quite how you are meant to remove and re-use the metal/rubber grease/oil seal without causing deformation is beyond my understanding of physics and material science.

Anyway, for the sake of £20 I can't be bothered to take it further, and SJ's will lose my custom (which may not bother them at all, as I may not be their biggest spender)....

... the thing that annoys me is that had they addressed the email asking how they wished to proceed with the return, or simply informed me that new units were now in stock, and how we were to proceed, at any point in the last 2 months, then this could have been avoided. Actually, within the agreed timescale, as it is only after that expires that my rights for rejection kick back in.

I am often annoyed when a simple act can avoid confrontation, however, once it gets to a stage that the other party is incorrectly making statements where they claim they are acting (or were intending to act) in a manner of a “Goodwill Gesture”, which in fact, is enshrined in English law – especially when they renege on their ‘offers and promises’.

Because they failed in the 'simple' customer service, we got to the adversarial stage over a quite short timescale over 2 days.

It is clear that SJ Sportscars (or the people who have been part of my exchange) are unaware of the full conditions of Consumer Law in England, and feel confident in either misquoting it, or stating/suggesting that they are doing you a bit of a favour (by complying with it).

As far as the main issue is concerned, it is all covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and in particular, Sections :-

9 - Goods to be of satisfactory quality
19 - Consumer's rights to enforce terms about goods
24 - Right to price reduction or final right to reject
28 - Delivery of goods

The case of Robinson v Harman [1848] is the current authority on “consequential loss” and is not addressed in the CRA 2015.

Anyway, if you've read this far, my caution to you is to ensure that what you are getting is what you expect, and to beware that if it isn't, anything you spend will be down to you, as Steve clearly isn't interested in retention of a customer base.

It is NOT for me to tell you where to spend your money, but suffice to say, I have never heard of a similar situation from any other independent suppliers, and SWL/PNM/Lotusbits will be my go-to suppliers and recommendation to others, based purely on my own experiences.

Maybe they assumed that as the only people who can provide these items, that they had me at somewhat of a disadvantage in the negotiation process, and simply didn’t care. Anyway, as they are NOT the only way to deal with new rear hubs/discs for the Elan, they may well find that they can’t sell much of their (now substantially increased in price) stock.

[chrism]

Dapinky, at risk of supporting a witch-hunt (topical at this time of the year, I know…) I feel a need to add my story - that was finally resolved a year ago on 25/10/22 - to your customer service reservations.

As part of my original m100 purchase I was supplied with a new zinc-coated pair of front control arms because of my reluctance to accept the sale due to corroded front TCAs. My usual mechanic ‘couldn’t fit them for some reason’ and a second mechanic found out that they were ‘wrongly manufactured’. This costed £££...s and despite the m100 dealer meanwhile closing down I managed to find out where the control arms originally came from - SJSportscars.

I phoned SJS and they told me to send them back for inspection and possible replacement.

Online I booked via a local pick-up, shop-based, delivery service and found that EVRI were the carriers that were used. Though not insured - they were, after all, useless to me - I quoted £800 when asked the value (though later I found that over £900 was paid by the seller/dealer for them.)

EVRI emailed that they’d tried to deliver the following Saturday, when SJS are closed, and I inferred that there would be another attempt during the following week(s).

After a few weeks I’d heard nothing, so I phoned SJS and they said that the control arms had been delivered, decided to be wrongly manufactured and replacements were ready that were due to be sent out immediately.

Nothing arrived so around 10 days later I phoned SJS again - only to be told that they’d mistaken my TCAs for a pair that a different customer had sent back, that mine hadn’t arrived but they had a set being remanufactured waiting for mine to arrive before being sent out as replacement.

When I phoned again during the week to see if mine had arrived I was told they hadn’t, and when I mentioned that there had previously been an attempted delivery on a Sat morning from EVRI I was treated to a guffaw of ‘well, what do you expect then?’ - which I thought was a bit inappropriate given that they hadn't offered to send a carrier return label (who they presumably had trusted dealings with...) and gave me no recommendation for carriers (to avoid…)

So I turned my attention to the delivery service who offered to refund the cost of postage only, saying that the carrier - EVRI - would refund the lost parcel. EVRI claimed the reverse, verified my parcel was lost and listed my claim as ongoing...being dealt with…then finally closed it!

Another long story, but over the best part of a month’s worth of multiple daily emails to different EVRI customer service agents I was treated to nothing further than polite emails assuring me that they were now proceeding with my ‘case’. I continued, meanwhile having found the email address of the dealer principle/CEO who I CC’d at every opportunity for good measure. With later emails I involved Citizen’s Advice as well as a ‘newspaper consumer fixer’ to finally get an £800 refund authorised by the CEO of EVRI - this despite researching and presenting the original receipt to of £900+ which EVRI refused to accept.

I think what finally ‘sealed’ my case was that there was no (photographic) proof of delivery by EVRI and my threat of a small claims court action (suggested by Citizens Advice) due to ‘consequential loss’ of a mismanaged service (as per the dapinky post?) as well as the prospect of a national press exposure in a well-read column.

So...a ‘reasonable’ success that could have been easier to solve had I been kept ‘in the picture’ by SJS. In hindsight I keep wondering if there’s a white van with m100 TCAs merrily perambulating the roads around Crediton and/or a pair of TCAs still sitting on the SJS shelf with my name on…

[dapinky]

Again, Chris, this sounds like something which could have been dealt with far better by a bit of simple communication on their part, but (like me) it was left for you to do the chasing.

I also find it hard to believe that there were multiple orders for TCAs at the same time (but I suppose it is possible). They are not things which get ordered very often (otherwise they'd keep them in stock).

It sounds as if they are getting items reproduced to sell under their own part numbers as a "Steves Alternative" - and these are being made down to a price, not up to a standard.

I wonder how many other parts they are selling that are simply not up to standard, but maybe close enough that people don't always notice straight away (if at all).

There is another thread where someone had some front ARB joints which were oversized, but it wasn't clear which dimension was wrong, or if it may be a 'safety' consideration.

Part of my "complaint" is that once I challenged them about the parts, they were suddenly available, but it was my fault that they were sitting on them. Then, once I exercised my right under S 24 of the CRA (not done in reasonable time, so rejection for refund) they got a bit adversarial, which quickly escalated to very adversarial!

I was mainly upset by the lack of care about keeping customers happy.

The legislation is very clear in that it is their responsibility to pay for return of defective items, not mine (or yours!). I informed them that I was unwilling to take the risk and send them uninsured (I dread to think what £900 worth of insurance would have cost you) without their direct permission..... and heard nothing, so I did nothing.

Initially, they seemed quite happy to accept that they would have to pay for return postage, fitting new bearings to new hubs, and then posting them out to me - a financial cost of somewhere in the region of £50 - and then refused to accept any responsibility for the £20 I feel they should have simply paid me... and it was all 'done and dusted' by them without entering into any form of dialogue. Reading it back, it sounds like I'm grabbing for twenty quid, which isn't my intention - the money doesn't matter to me - the principle does!!!

I wondered if it was James making all the decisions, and that is why I asked if Steve was part of the process, and was told that he was - so I now have little confidence in the whole company.

I can't be bothered to progress my financial losses through the CC system (which is unlike me, as Bob Brown found out when his finances were buggered by having a CCJ against him), but won't feel happy to recommend them as a 'trusted supplier'.

I'm pretty sure that for most items in stock, there is no likelihood of a problem - but when it comes to a re-made "alternative" with outside engineers involved, it doesn't feel right.

Caveat Emptor

[chrism]

...but I have to balance my experience by adding that I very recently needed to buy a rear arb ball joint from SJS.

There were no problems. It was ordered online w/out making any phone connection or involvement with customer service, came promptly and fitted perfectly...

[dapinky]

...but I have to balance my experience by adding that I very recently needed to buy a rear arb ball joint from SJS.

There were no problems. It was ordered online w/out making any phone connection or involvement with customer service, came promptly and fitted perfectly...

Yes, I hear you.

I have been a customer of SJs for decades, and have never had an issue until this time. As I have said, ordering is quick and simple online (and before that, by placing telephone orders). Anything which is a 'standard stock item' has been delivered promptly and well packaged.

Maybe it's a bit like car (or any other) insurance - you really never know how good a company is until you need to make a claim - anyone can make a statement of how good they are, but until you need it, you just never know.

My issue wasn't really the fact that the hubs were defective, or the offer to get them replaced in a month. I accept that things go wrong, and was happy to wait for a month if that was what it took to resolve it. My issue is that they didn't send out the replacements when they got them (whether it was within the month or twice as long, I'll never know), or even bother to contact me to tell me they were available. The manner of the conversations thereafter is what initially disappointed me, and then angered me.

THEY were the party at fault, and SHOULD have done something to alleviate the problem - but they didn't.

They did no more than the bare minimum that the legislation allows for (and, in my view, actually less than that), and as such, there was NO customer service involved.

[lotusflasherman]

...but I have to balance my experience by adding that I very recently needed to buy a rear arb ball joint from SJS.

There were no problems. It was ordered online w/out making any phone connection or involvement with customer service, came promptly and fitted perfectly...

That is what I'd expect. Good Customer Service is about the service provided when something has gone wrong and there is a problem.

[lotusflasherman]

Dave, sorry to read of your problems. SJS' has been my "main supplier" since Pat Thomas retired from Kelvedon, I recently had an email from SJS about rear hub/discs accompanied by 18 copies of it which I think indicates how many orders from me are on their computer - shame they didn't search on "Customer". I have also used Rock Auto for a big order, but coming from USA their delivery takes longer than from SJS', but their postage costs are only marginally more!

I have had some issues with parts supplied by SJS' ...

one was the top hose from thermostat housing to rad' - it seemed to be moulded with a flaw that when bent, showed the inner canvas. I rejected it as "not fit for purpose" ...

hose.JPG

another was a head gasket inadequately packed with some flimsy cardboard and other stuff, all in bubble-wrap, and HG arrived bent and damaged..

20200316_hg.jpg

James did not 'want to play ball' on the HG, probably being the person who packed it, but I had Steve's email address (steve@sjsportscars.co.uk)
On a Saturday morning I emailed Steve, several more photos of HG and this ...

County Court Small Claims.JPG

and followed up with a phone call which he answered .. Told him "I will not f-ck about arguing but just submit claim to SCC in Ipswich. I will attend Court and submit additional claim for Loss of Earnings for that day."
Steve apologised and I got a replacement HG posted that day - seems Steve and I now have a good understanding ...

Further transactions have gone smoothly -as they should!

[dapinky]

Phil,

I have also used them for a long time, but certainly not exclusively.

I'm surprised that you consider Rockauto postage to be lengthy (although I have had to wait for a week once).... Their best time to me was order on a Friday evening, on my doorstep by Tuesday lunch...... still, that was pre-covid, and like many, things have "slowed down" a bit since then.

What you say about your HG has a ring of truth, and I don't see how it could be anything other than either poor packaging, or poor handling during transit.... either way, not your problem.

The only surprise is that Steve saw your point of view, as (well, according to James) he was on-board with my situation.

As such, I find him even more blameworthy that James, as the failure is at "customer service" level, which ultimately stops with him at the top.

I'm sure they are not going to be too upset at me no longer buying from them, as they are unlikely to ever get rich from my orders alone, but such is life.

[Simon_P]

On a Saturday morning I emailed Steve, several more photos of HG and this ...

That's clear and unambiguous .

[chrism]

Simon_P, the way I read it lotusflasherman meant that he sent a few more pics to Steve PLUS a County Court 'intention' (look, it's pictured just below this statement) citing 'Breach of contract concerning goods or property'...

And yes he doesn't beat 'around the bush' does he?

[Simon_P]

Chrism - as did I but the quote didn't copy the picture! (I don't know why as it usually does).
Excellent nonverbal communication I thought!

[chrism]

Oh...sorry Simon_P...and agreed

[Tuga2112]

ive been keeping an eye on this discussion since 20 minutes after the post was made.

generally speaking, i have different experiences from most LEC members when it comes to "customer service" although i have only made it public onse, my expectations are different than the majority.
i avoid SJ as a matter of habit, due to growing up in a completely different culture, i have an extremely sceptical view on corporations that prefix their marketing with the word "specialist" by comparison to the english norm.

however, as any other long term M100 owner will agree. they are the cheapest option or the only option sometimes... so here's my story.
my brake caliper bolts were purchased, (probably 8 years ago) and within 2 hours i got a call being told they were out of stock, and would be with me sometime at the end of the following week,
2 weeks gone by and nothing in the post. when i called to enquiry i was told "they are arriving tomorow" (as arriving at SJs warehouse) but very strangely these arrived at my doorstep 2 days later on royal mail second class...
now, the dates didnt add up, as royal mail second class has a habit of delivering 2-3 days later instead of next day.

ever since then been extremely suspisious of SJs honesty when comunicating with customers. as a simple "oh yes, these arrived last week but i forgot to post to you" answer would have been perfectly acceptable, as well as honest reply.

i will obviously never find out the truth, but on a different note. i had called SJs 2 times to enquire about things that arrived, and the first time i spoke with steve directly, and was surprised by hes knowledge on the part i purchased and specifically on the way he described the "trick" to fit it (i cannot recall what the part was anymore, but the expertise demonstrated was memorable) and a second time it was about the suspension bushings, which was a bit a complete faff, and althought i wasnt sure i received the right thing, within 10 minutes of backwards and forwards with calipers in hand it came to a conclusion that 2 parts are the same although they were posted with 2 bags with different codes.

my take from what i have witnessed so far is that it appears SJs has a bad apple in the payroll for potentially 8-9 years. i would certainly hope that Steve is serious about the customer base. because at the end of the day, every business owner knows bad news travels fast.

as a business runner, i would be likely unhappy with the ingenuity of the members of this forum, because its very common to find alternatives here that will cut SJs profits, at the end of the day, we will never know how many people read the posts, buy something from the alternative supplier and never login to express their gratitude for the information. i certainly have bought a lot of things from other suppliers where if i was ignorant of this forum, SJ would have made a sale