Turbo Creep.....

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Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:01

Doug wrote:Hegg, boost cut would feel like the rev limiter -- )which is something you can go test if you've the balls!) -- it's an ABRUPT surge of slowing as the fuel is cut. The way you state misfiring is what I would tend to also term misfiring and that is not fuel cut. Misfiring could be due to old spark plugs, base timing off a tad, old spark plug leads, sticky injectors . . .


Yeah, that's what I initially thought. There's definitely not a jolt and I can keep driving mostly normal. I still have acceleration. My check engine light doesn't come on, either.

I have NGK Iridium plugs in there which are supposed to be .044 gap. I thought at first it was misfiring because the gap was too large (since the book says for some plugs it should be .032, and for others .044), so I shrunk the gap on all 4 down to .040. I've also done my timing twice to make sure it was dead on 16 degrees, which it is. New wires also installed (well, 10k miles ago).

If timing were the issue, the misfiring would mean it's a tad too far advanced, right? Maybe I'll retard it to 15 or 14 degrees and see if the problem is still exhibited.

Thanks again for the expert knowledge!
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Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:08

John_W wrote:Perhaps what you are describing is just a plain simple misfire. If it only happens at high boost, the obvious thing to check is plug gaps. They should be 31 thou. If any wider, the spark won't be able to bridge the gap with a dense charge in the cylinder. Other possibilities are coil or leads, but checking the plug gaps is the cheapest.


Along the lines of gap, I read through the book and I thought it was .032, but maybe it was .031, for several brands of plugs, but the manual also said it should be .044 for other brands. One was NGK I think. I don't think they had the Iridiums available (I highly recommend these, BTW) back in 1990, so I'd assume they were referring to the regular NGKs. Either way, when I did a lookup of the plug to match to the Elan engine, it still said that the NGK should be at .044.

I guess I'm confused as to why there is not only a gap recommendation difference, but a HUGE difference in the two gaps specified in the book. Maybe I was reading the Turbo vs. NA plug gaps on accident?

Time to do some testin'!
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Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:12

Hegg wrote:I guess I'm confused as to why there is not only a gap recommendation difference, but a HUGE difference in the two gaps specified in the book. Maybe I was reading the Turbo vs. NA plug gaps on accident?

Time to do some testin'!

Jeff,

I've just checked Mark Hughes book and it is 31 thou for turbos and 43 thou for NAs.

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Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:15

That's probably where I went wrong! I've been running .044 all along!

(FYI, it ran fine, other than the aforementioned issue after I installed the air filter. I get 35 mpg, too!)
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Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:20

Bingo. Result!

35 :shock: That's US gallons as well!
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Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:27

What am I supposed to be getting? 8)

www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm. Search for a 1991 Lotus Elan. I'm the only Lotus Elan on that site. I guess I actually get 34 mpg, not 35.

That's a lot of sittin-in-traffic-idling-with-the-fans-on, too. Darn rush hour.
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Postby GeoffSmith » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:43

Hegg wrote:What am I supposed to be getting?

UK figures: 26.4/40.6/31.7 mpg
equates to: 22.0/33.8/26.4 mpg (UK gallon = 1.2 US gallons)

You're obviously not having enough fun even if you're getting 34!
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Postby Hegg » Tue 03.10.2006, 23:49

I'm kind of an old granny driver.... suprising to most people seeing that I have 3 Lotuses. And only 29 years old.

I was definitely born in the wrong era. I don't fit in with my crowd.

However.... I *do* know how and when to floor it. 8)
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Postby Hegg » Wed 04.10.2006, 02:08

Alright, made it home! Reading through the manual says:

Code: Select all
Spark plugs - type - N.A.                  NGK BKR6E-11 or ND K20PR-U11
                   - Turbo - recommended - NGK BKR6E or ND K20PR-U
                           - alternative   NGK BKR7E-11 or ND K22PR-U11
            - gap - suffix '11' or 'U11'   1.1 mm (0.043 in)
                  - others                 0.8 mm (0.031 in)

So y'all were right (of course) I think. But in my defense, it does say .043 if you use anything with a -11 at the end (which I am). What does that -11 mean, anyway?
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Postby Hegg » Wed 04.10.2006, 03:26

Woo hoo! Problem solved!

Gapped 'em all between .032 and .034, depending on how many swears I made until I gave up. Took it out and doesn't misfire anymore! Feels like slightly less power, but it's still pretty fast anyway, so I don't care!

Thanks guys!
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Postby GeoffSmith » Fri 06.10.2006, 10:37

hector wrote:Can someone explain a little more what means "turbo creep"
It's what Clemo used to call most people on LEC until recently! :)
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Postby donsladek » Sun 15.10.2006, 23:48

Hegg wrote:Alright, made it home! Reading through the manual says:

Code: Select all
Spark plugs - type - N.A.                  NGK BKR6E-11 or ND K20PR-U11
                   - Turbo - recommended - NGK BKR6E or ND K20PR-U
                           - alternative   NGK BKR7E-11 or ND K22PR-U11
            - gap - suffix '11' or 'U11'   1.1 mm (0.043 in)
                  - others                 0.8 mm (0.031 in)

So y'all were right (of course) I think. But in my defense, it does say .043 if you use anything with a -11 at the end (which I am). What does that -11 mean, anyway?


Here is the coding system for Denso (formerly Nippon Denso or N-D) spark plugs:

www.globaldenso.com/PLUG/spec/index.html

-11 indicates the plug is gapped to 1.1 mm, presumably from the factory.

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Postby GeoffSmith » Mon 16.10.2006, 00:06

Ben (Vi11ain),

Please look here for the official ElanScan Interface list.

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Postby nitroman » Sat 06.01.2007, 06:47

An example of all it takes to get rid of boost creep, sometimes! "The early bird gets the worm."

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0207scc_project_toyota_matrix_part_2/photo_05.html
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Postby rexcramer82 » Thu 08.03.2007, 23:31

had a new exhaust fitted a few months back as the old standard one decided it wanted to fall off, got a new one larger bore one put on and everything was fine apart from hitting the fuel cut out once or twice in third however now once the car is warmed up 2nd - 5th as soon as i put my foot down and the turbo kicks in it goes crazy just slowly accelerates very jerkely is the best way to describe , i know you guys may have already explained this in the thread but i am but a mere simple mortal when it comes to these things so any advice would be great
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Postby Hegg » Thu 08.03.2007, 23:38

Welcome to the forum! I'm not a turbo expert, but from what you describe it sounds like it could be caused by a few issues. I would probably double-check things like plug gap, oxygen sensor, and air filter just to make sure the whole ignition system in general is in good shape.

Apart from that, my guesses would be perhaps a sticky wastegate or the ECU is flipping out on boost control. When you say it accellerates very slowly, are you saying it's slow compared to normal "full-boost" accelleration, or it's slow compared to zero accelleration at all? Does it feel like all power is lost, or just being delivered in a non-linear manner?

Perhaps one other thing could be a plugged exhaust, possibly caused by the guts of the catalytic converter breaking up and lodging in the pipes. But then of course you may not even have a cat...

If you have ElanScan or some way to read your ECU, it may also have some clues, such as excessive knocking or something.

Hope some of that helps.
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Postby rexcramer82 » Fri 09.03.2007, 16:17

thanks for the reply, basically when it starts to boost it just goes very judery as if turbo is trying to boost and stops n tries al very quickly its hsard to explain but something is def wrong lol,
what cables do you need to use elanscan?
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Postby Hegg » Fri 09.03.2007, 16:44

I use the USB interface for ElanScan and it works like a charm.

As far as the boost problem, does it feel like it's misfiring? Could be a problem like the gap in your spark plugs, especially if they are old and worn. I think I'd have to defer to the very knowledgeable members that know a lot more about turbos. 8)
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Re:

Postby GeoffSmith » Thu 28.02.2019, 10:44

GeoffSmith wrote:
ESM wrote:I suspect the squish in the exhaust is there to guarantee adherence to rules regarding the minimum distance of the exhaust from structural parts of the car


geoffsmith wrote: :goodposting: That's the most plausible explanation I've heard to explain the carefully squared exhaust section / squish.


Dave wrote:I couldn't agree more. It is already very close to the prongeron & steering rack.


Well that's three heretics who will likely burn in hell! :twisted: I've just been having a look at my old squished section and it is D shaped which approximates to a semicircle on top of a rectangular section. It is a lot wider than the standard 2" diameter and I estimate its csa is about 95% of the 2" pipe. Interestingly, just back from the cat is a narrowing which is ~1¾" diameter or 75% of the csa.


Finally - vindication and the three heretics have leave to appeal!

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Re: Turbo Creep.....

Postby HJ2 » Thu 28.02.2019, 12:53

Now here's a topic revival!!!
Nothing better do do Geoff? :lol:
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