Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Moderators: theelanman, dapinky, Dave Eds, DaveT, Specky, Elanlover, Nige, muley, Enright, algirdas, Sy V, nitroman, GeoffSmith, clemo

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby dapinky » Thu 07.09.2023, 11:28

It's a good point about 'availability' of parts - and that is why it is good to go with someone who you feel is 'good enough' and that only comes from talking to them, and seeing their work.

Whilst Simon paints a bleak picture of parts that you can get, it is important to note that it isn't often a problem, as long as things are done right!

First, the lack of oversize bearings isn't a big problem as I have NEVER seen an Elan crank that needs a grind - they had such a good nitriding/hardening at the production stage that the actual crank journals just don't wear (I'm sure someone will jump up with an example of a catastrophic failure over the past 30 years, but I can't remember one).... it is due to this hardening that the crank shouldn't be re-ground (it will remove the hardening) - but I suspect that if it WERE done, and appropriate Main/Big End bearing shells were used, it would be fine.... but it won't last for 200K+ miles!

The big point is the oil holes in the shells - unless you read the Manual (or know the contents), it is easy to look in a manufacturers catalogue and buy parts which will physically fit, and work fine..... for now. Without the extra hole, oil pressure will be higher than expected, as it can't send a squirt of oil to the underside of the piston skirt, so the piston gets hotter.

Realistically, none of these things will matter if you drive down to Tesco every Saturday, and take a drive out on a Sunday....... and rarely go over 5000 revs for sustained periods. But if you are taking it to the red line on a track regularly, it will end in tears.

One further thought - if your engine needs new parts, make sure that the right ones are fitted - we have mentioned the bearing shells, but the actual crank is different between the Turbo Elan and the NA (I don't know which was used by the Isuzu!) to allow for the extra oil hole, and also one was cast whilst one was forged (forged being much better).

The Pistons are different between Turbo/NA, as are the Head Gaskets, Camshafts and variety of other parts/ancillaries - the clutch and the oil pumps are different.

If it were me being asked to do the work (and I'm NOT offering!!!!) I would strip it all down and start again - and I suspect anyone who is worthy of the job would want to do the same.
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
User avatar
dapinky
LEC Administrator
 
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun 15.10.2006, 12:54
Location: As far west as you can get in West Wales before you become Irish (Pembroke Dock).

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby Simon_P » Thu 07.09.2023, 12:18

dapinky wrote:Whilst Simon paints a bleak picture of parts that you can get, it is important to note that it isn't often a problem, as long as things are done right!
Oh, I was trying to paint a picture of why you would need to know what you're doing to make the best of what is available... which you have done but perhaps less bleakly.
Simon_P
God
 
Posts: 2395
Joined: Fri 06.08.2004, 12:33
Location: Kent UK

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby dapinky » Thu 07.09.2023, 16:06

Simon_P wrote:
dapinky wrote:Whilst Simon paints a bleak picture of parts that you can get, it is important to note that it isn't often a problem, as long as things are done right!
Oh, I was trying to paint a picture of why you would need to know what you're doing to make the best of what is available... which you have done but perhaps less bleakly.


I have to admit, when I first started collecting together the parts I (assumed that I'd) need I ended up feeling very bleak indeed!!!!

Couldn't get oversize pistons, couldn't get oversize bearings, couldn't get a new oilpump.......

I then established that the oversize bearings were not a problem, as I could either use (carefully selected) standard ones, or at a worst case, drill some holes in some NA ones and grind the crank and accept that I'd likely ruined it long-term, but would get on the road short term.

I happened across a group buy from a guy on Isuzone forum who was having a batch of oversize forged race pistons made, so jumped on it at the time...... not sure if I will ever use them, as the standard ones with new rings may well be good enough - but I have them if needed.

The final stumbling block (and really the only reason it hasn't been done in the past 10+ years) is the oil pump....... however, the one on my spare engine was working fine when I swapped it out of the red car. I suppose I ought to whip it off the engine and measure the damn thing! If it is within tolerance, then it's good to go, if not, well, I'm no worse off than I am now.

Ah, well, another job for the Winter!
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it

go on - click this link - you know you want to!
User avatar
dapinky
LEC Administrator
 
Posts: 9968
Joined: Sun 15.10.2006, 12:54
Location: As far west as you can get in West Wales before you become Irish (Pembroke Dock).

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby TorqueHorse » Sat 09.09.2023, 01:56

Really good advice from the gurus on this thread. Fyi, for now at least, SJ is showing oversized pistons and rings, in both overbore increments. https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and- ... E6544S.htm
Maybe the aftermarket support will catch-up on those other things soon too.
-Matt N
'90 FED M100 -mid resto
Chassis Exterior FrSus RrSus Engine Trans Wheels Steering Brakes Cooling Fuel Ventilation Exhaust Interior
User avatar
TorqueHorse
Fanatic
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed 01.01.2020, 07:42
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby simonbuk » Mon 11.09.2023, 18:09

Simon_P wrote:
simonbuk wrote:What is wrong with the existing engine ?


Good question and not one of the 5 different people i asked came up with the same answer (or any answer) !! :lol:
Its basically noisy and has got worse, there is a head gasket replacement in its history so looks like its suffered some oil starvation somewhere.
It is what it is - we are where we are !!

So the history of the saga so far -

The engine needed to be removed and inspected to see what was going on. My mechanic said he could pull the engine out but that would leave a car on his ramp/in his workshop whilst waiting for an engine builder to do their job.

A second hand short motor turned up so i bought it and took it to an engine builder. The crank measured perfect, the cylinders very slightly worn but nothing the honing couldn't sort out, cleaned up, new piston rings, new big end shells, took it home and stuck it in the garage. 6-12 months later a head turned up, took that to the engine builder, cleaned up, pressure tested, new valve stem seals/guides,etc. Took it home and stuck it in the garage.

Then the C*V*D years came along, gave up a job to look after my mother who was going downhill with parkinsons, no money to fix things,etc,etc.

Now i could take it back to the engine builder and get them to put it all together is one answer - no idea on cost.
Was hoping to find somebody to finish it so wouldn't pay workshop hourly rates, just person hourly rates.
I've heard of people having bills of 4-5000 quid for a fully built engine, thats without fitting i think. I don't want a showroom engine, just one that bloody works !!

My mechanic says he can do it - i feel confident he can do it. So that looks like the plan now. Start to build it up a little in between jobs/quiet periods, i'll buy some parts from SJs, until we need to pull the engine and then transfer the ancillaries needed over.

Thanks for the info supplied so far. Good point about the shells and the hole in them. I had the old shells returned so the holes would have been apparent (but i know that doesn't necessarily mean the new ones are like that !). I guess i could remove a big end and see ? I don't have a torque wrench but as long as it was tightend back up correctly (with a torque wrench) nothing to worry about ?

I know when they put engines together they use some oils on new components in the build process. The block has been standing for probably 4-5 years - would this need to be repeated ? Its been kept clean and dry and i have sprayed oil inside and under the block and kept an eye on it.
Simon - Black S2. Simonthesailor

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did. So buy an Elan" - Mark Twain.
User avatar
simonbuk
God
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun 13.03.2016, 12:50
Location: Orpington, Kent, sometimes Worthing, currently River Thames........

Re: Anybody EXPERIENCED in building up an engine ?

Postby simonbuk » Mon 11.09.2023, 18:25

dapinky wrote:
One further thought - if your engine needs new parts, make sure that the right ones are fitted - we have mentioned the bearing shells, but the actual crank is different between the Turbo Elan and the NA (I don't know which was used by the Isuzu!) to allow for the extra oil hole, and also one was cast whilst one was forged (forged being much better).

The Pistons are different between Turbo/NA, as are the Head Gaskets, Camshafts and variety of other parts/ancillaries - the clutch and the oil pumps are different.


This is all a very good point - i can't really remember how i bought the block and later the head.

Is there a way to identify turbo pistons, turbo camshafts, turbo crankshaft, turbo oil pump - numbers/markings ?

As stated in the previous post the big end shells were ones that were 'holed' so should therefore be a turbo engine ?!

I have bought a turbo head gasket from SJs already..........
Simon - Black S2. Simonthesailor

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did. So buy an Elan" - Mark Twain.
User avatar
simonbuk
God
 
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sun 13.03.2016, 12:50
Location: Orpington, Kent, sometimes Worthing, currently River Thames........

Previous

Return to Engine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest