Datalogger

[dapinky]

Speak English

Seriously, none of this means a lot to me, but i'm sure that progress is being made.

As a complete numpty on the design/build/compatibility side of IT, can you answer a couple of questions for me (and no, I'm NOT actually taking the P this time{makes a change}).......

1. Ballpark figure for something which attaches to the car so I can record elanscan to download to the laptop by either WiFi, USB stick or SD card.

2. How long a run will be recorded, and then does it stop or overwrite so you get the most current 1hrs worth (for example).

3. What is the advantage over just sticking my old IBM laptop in the boot (on a hard-wired docking station) and running/recording Elanscan whilst playing music and using the SatNav etc etc - possibly controlled from a touch sensitive 7" monitor in the dash?

4. Will this system require a 'boot up' everytime i start the engine, or will that be done automatically. If it does require one, what would the time delay be from when i get in, to when it is ready to go, and would it matter if the engine was running or not?


See, i told you i was a numpty - I'm sure that many on here will think that the answers are obvious, but i'm not one of them

[mnemonix]

I can't answer for Geoffs project obviously, but regarding points 3 & 4, if you already have the kit and can actually work a pc on a 7" touch screen this could be the ultimate in-car system, particularly with the development of some custom software to do what you want with a nice interface. For anyone else though, the cost of the bits to do this could exceed £1000, whereas I'd expect a dedicated module such as a datalogger to cost less (without treading on Geoffs toes, possibly much less) than £100.

Boot time for systems like this is typically a second or two, much like the ECU itself.

Chris.

[ailwyn]

2. How long a run will be recorded, and then does it stop or overwrite so you get the most current 1hrs worth (for example).

I think Geoff is looking at a memory (RAM/NVRAM?) capcity sufficient to record 1 hours worth of data, which would imply to me that it would be a rolling 1 hour history however whether this resets every time the car is shut off or just continues would be down to the design. Also the detail on when to record to SD/Memory Stick would need to be considered.

3. What is the advantage over just sticking my old IBM laptop in the boot (on a hard-wired docking station) and running/recording Elanscan whilst playing music and using the SatNav etc etc - possibly controlled from a touch sensitive 7" monitor in the dash?

Without some software to actually manage all the functions I don't believe that a PC is the best solution for ICE/SATNAV. Firstly the applications are not generally designed for a small touch screen, there is no management/priority of applications i.e. if you have the music and satnav running how do you lower the music to hear the instruction?

For me a PC (without specific software) requires too much intervention, is likely to distract the driver, and if you are unlucky enough to be involved in an accident could be used (rightly or wrongly) to argue that you were not giving sufficient concentration to the road. Try sitting in the passenger seat, laptop in front of you, and search for music through the Windows Media Player library and see if you can keep an eye on the road too, then factor in the smaller screen and being in the driving seat.

Add ElanScan into the mix and you are asking for trouble IMHO.

Hopefully the datalogger will be far more discreet and have less distractions for the driver.

4. Will this system require a 'boot up' everytime i start the engine, or will that be done automatically. If it does require one, what would the time delay be from when i get in, to when it is ready to go, and would it matter if the engine was running or not?

It's largely dependant on how the unit is wired (switched/constant +ive), what hardware platform is used, and how the software initialises to a ready state.. but as stated above this is normally less than 2 seconds (but could be as much as 10-20 secs).

The engine wouldn't need to be running, but the ECU will need to be active, the same as Elanscan.

I think it's safe to say though that the system will be communicating with the ECU far quicker than you can engage 1st gear.

[mnemonix]

Hopefully the datalogger will be far more discreet and have less distractions for the driver.

I'd have to agree with ailwyn here, though as we know, you can buy off the shelf pc-based ICE systems to do everything you want so they're not unheard of, but not really in the spirit of Elan-ing I'd venture. If I were tackling a home-built system of this nature though, I think I'd pick my individual applications (music player, satnav etc) carefully for ease of small touch screen use, and then write a simple GUI application with big buttons to switch between them, control volume etc. Just saying...

My personal interest as I'd mentioned, was a less home-diagnostic orientated trip computer with a very simple 1 or 2 line LCD display, of use to those who want a live readout of useful information at a glance while on the road. I'd like a more accurate speedometer, revcounter, fuel guage, odometer & timer, an indication of current and averaged mpg, immediate access to useful diagnostic information in the event of a roadside breakdown as a start.

I hope I'm not diverting too far from the thread topic, I was just chipping in with my shared interest in it from a slightly different perspective.

Chris.

[ailwyn]

Chris,

I guess Geoff is looking for input on desirable features so I doubt you'll get shouted down for your posts

Ailwyn

[dapinky]

Thanks to you all for taking the time to reply - my knowledge is increasing, but still flawed

We have Mobile Data Terminals in the cars at work, so am fairly happy with using a monitor/portable keyboard in the car - obviously NOT whilst driving

To clarify, i currently have an IBM T30 which has all sorts on it, but of use here would be MS Autoroute with GPS module (on USB), Media Player and Elanscan.

I have been offered a docking station FOC which i was thinking of locating in the boot (or behind the seat, or somewhere else), hard wiring the Satnav receiver somewhere in the car, and conecting the Audio out to the speakers (I'm not overly worried about 'quality' of the music sound, so that isn't any sort of issue).

By connecting the elanscan interface to the serial port on the docking station, i thought i could have a reasonable system controlled by a 7"/8" touch screen which connects into another USB port.

Remote switching of power isn't an issue, and it can be wired into the ignition (or not, as the case may be).

I only listen to local radio, or MP3 when on longer trips, so setting up a 'playlist' on Mediaplayer isn't going to distract me at all - this leaves the point of having the sound from the Satnav audible over the music (hadn't thought about it, and don't know what will happen, but i can try it next time I'm passenger in any car).

I would like a simple screen display with just a few 'buttons' to control sound levels and minimal applications (ie - switching into elanscan - or can that be automated???) but wouldn't have a clue where to start

This would need me to source a display to operate everything, which should be in the £100-£120 region (something like this?).

All just a thought at the moment, and probably will never get off the ground (but at least I could access WiFi from McDonalds car park and surf for free!)

[mnemonix]

Where is your understanding still flawed ? What you describe is do-able but nothing like what Geoff is offering, which is essentially just an ElanScan recorder... and while it could be described as a "computer" of sorts, is really just a simple microprocessor costing pennies with some IO capability.

As for where to start... You've described exactly how the hardware would function, and I described a simple GUI application with big buttons to switch between your pc applications (music player, satnav, elanscan etc) as a refinement. To develop this you simply need to be able to program for the pc and have a development environment to do it in such as Microsft Visual Studio for whatever language you use... Objective C, C#, Visual Basic etc.

Chris.

[dapinky]

Where is your understanding still flawed ? What you describe is do-able but not what Geoff is offering, which is essentially just an ElanScan recorder...

As for where to start... You've described exactly how the hardware would function, and I described a simple GUI application with big buttons to switch between your pc applications (music player, satnav, elanscan etc) as a refinement. To develop this you simply need to be able to program for the pc and have a development environment to do it in such as Microsft Visual Studio for whatever language you use... Objective C, C#, Visual Basic etc.

Chris.

Chris, the bits you talk about is where my understanding is flawed - I ain't got a clue what a GUI is, I know nowt about programing (BASIC & COBAL excepted - no 'puters when i was at school!), and as for the list of Klingon words at the end of your paragraph.......... C# etc etc.

I understand that Geoff was talking about a more simple (possibly, if you understand them, they're simple!) elanscan recorder, but i was just doing my usual thing of wandering off topic into the hypothetical.....

I was just thinking that a 100Gb hard drive on the computer would store far more elanscan runs than a SD card, and would just need thinning out every so often whilst recording everything - thereby allowing me to see any long term degradation of the car systems - perhaps i'm punching above my weight with my expectations vs my ability and i'll wait to see what gets developed and then just plug it in

[mnemonix]

Sorry dave!

GUI is a graphical user interface, so I was proposing a small custom piece of software with a nice GUI - ie big easy to use buttons, that would switch between the programs you want to use without you having to try and click on icons etc on a tiny screen!

There might be a free pice of software already available to do this already for all I know, it's use is very general purpose, but were it not, you'd have to write it... I was just illustrating languages you might use at the end. Your proposal is otherwise pretty much plug and play - plug the bits together, use the pc via the touch screen.

Chris.

[dapinky]

Thanks for the idiot level explanation (i need it).

I can cope with the plug and play fitting it to the car bit - just like lego! - it's the software which may be needed that i aint got a clue about!

I think i'll just see what develops at the moment.

[GeoffSmith]

Al/Chris, I agree with you about the Atmel µCs: A lot nicer than PICs and a lot like the 8085 - first system I designed and built (including video card) 25+ years ago! They're certainly worth investigating further but you're not getting a 100pin, 0.05" pitch sledgehammer for cracking this nut, a 20 pin DIL will do fine - Lotus design philosophy, not Microsoft!

Dave, I think Chris and Ailwyn have answered most of your points - my aim is to bring the ALDLDL in at under £100 and it will be a Gates free zone! The intention is for the baseline design to have on-board memory to capture the last hours data with maximum resolution or ~ 1 year of data at 1 reading per second. An extension will be to have provision for e.g. a 2G memory stick and this should all allow you to record everything at maximum resolution for a year (so no need for a 100G HDD!). Every log will start up automatically whenever you turn the key and will have be time/date stamped as it will have a real time clock.

Chris, feel free to throw in ideas - I have a couple of large LCD dicplays which may be bolted on at a later date!

[mnemonix]

Al/Chris, I agree with you about the Atmel µCs: A lot nicer than PICs and a lot like the 8085 - first system I designed and built (including video card) 25+ years ago! They're certainly worth investigating further but you're not getting a 100pin, 0.05" pitch sledgehammer for cracking this nut, a 20 pin DIL will do fine - Lotus design philosophy, not Microsoft!

ATMega168 is a 28pin DIP package, 20MHz, 16K program space, 23 io lines, 6 are 10bit ADC. About £3 each.

It's also the basis of the open source arduino platform if you're interested which gives it an FTDI based USB port and dead simple C based development environment which can program the ATMega168 in circuit via the usb link, though you may be more of a total diy person than me, I'm more interested in the end result than designing the circuit board, and probably lack the talent to do so anyway!

[al]

Al/Chris, I agree with you about the Atmel µCs: A lot nicer than PICs and a lot like the 8085 - first system I designed and built (including video card) 25+ years ago! They're certainly worth investigating further but you're not getting a 100pin, 0.05" pitch sledgehammer for cracking this nut, a 20 pin DIL will do fine - Lotus design philosophy, not Microsoft!

The ATMega168 or similar would do nicely (available in a 28 way DIL ), TBH even the 168 has more hardware than we strictly need [currently], but the real deciding factor is going to be flash space for the code since we're going to have to either:
a) include code for read/writing to FAT16 to get the data out to SD card, or
b) come up with some way of having the recorder appear as some sort of removable storage device when you plug it in to a PC

Both of these options are going to be heavy on the code space.
I'm not sure (b) is even viable if we're using the FTDI style USB->TTL chips since they just present a stream USB endpoint, having said that I know there are pure software USB stacks kicking around but again that's going to require a fair chunk of code space in the flash.

The other option for getting data out would be a bit of code on the PC which spoke some protocol of our own devising, would be less flash space required on the logger but it'd be a bit unwieldy unless it was built in to ES (plus I don't actually have a Windows machine anywhere, or the code to ES, so writing that would be difficult !)

Ah, also, going for option (a) [whether with or without FAT] requires that we have > 512bytes of RAM free too since we'll have to write to the SD card a block at a time, or, and I'd be very temped, we could use this: http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog ... cts_id=101
(the driver IC CD17B10 is apparently available separately too for considerably less).

Ugh, that's a bit of a jumbled mess of thoughts, sorry about that but I'm not feeling particularly well at the moment, hopefully you can pull some sort of sense out of this mess !

[GeoffSmith]

Sorry to hear your under the weather - get well soon. I'm not feeling too good as I'm in the middle of backing up my pc before I re-install XP as it's gone very flaky (5 minutes to open a small text file!?!)

Don't worry about the memory interface I know you software types always try to think of an excuse why you need ten times the memory you're offered! - it's sorted. The FTDI Vinculum does what it says on the tin and I can save data sent from a COM port straight into a memory stick!

[theelanman]

just as a side note.......
all these guys who do track days are not allowed to use timing devices....
however could an option of an additional dash mounted button be added for start/lap/stop.....1 press starts, 1 press logs a lap time, hold down 5secs for stop....something like that....just a thought....I think itd get round any issues as it wouldnt provide you with immediate data.....if as youre saying its info on an SD then youd only see the info after youd finished.......

thoughts??....

would deffo make it more appealing to the track day crew

[GeoffSmith]

Additional I/O for e.g. emergency record/save data button, lap counter etc. etc.

[Enright]

just as a side note.......
all these guys who do track days are not allowed to use timing devices....
however could an option of an additional dash mounted button be added for start/lap/stop.....1 press starts, 1 press logs a lap time, hold down 5secs for stop....something like that....just a thought....I think itd get round any issues as it wouldnt provide you with immediate data.....if as youre saying its info on an SD then youd only see the info after youd finished.......

thoughts??....

would deffo make it more appealing to the track day crew

Aha, now rather than dash mounted, how about wiper stalk mounted?
If that's good enough then the higher level Vectra/Omega wiper stalks already have a delay rheostat built into them (yes I know the VW module option is more elegant), but more importantly they also have an S & R button at the end. Best of all they're a straight swap-out to what we already have fitted.

[GeoffSmith]

I was thinking foot mounted, but any switch could be used.

[al]

Sorry to hear your under the weather - get well soon. I'm not feeling too good as I'm in the middle of backing up my pc before I re-install XP as it's gone very flaky (5 minutes to open a small text file!?!)

Cheers mate.
In return, may I suggest you dump that hunk of junk and get a Mac light blue touchpaper, stand well back.

Don't worry about the memory interface I know you software types always try to think of an excuse why you need ten times the memory you're offered! - it's sorted. The FTDI Vinculum does what it says on the tin and I can save data sent from a COM port straight into a memory stick!

oops, looks like the Vinculum does the same thing as the DosOnChip CD17B10 then, that'll teach me to read things that are sent to me !
In which case, the ATMega168/Arduino will do the job nicely then !

You gotta realise that I work with Terabytes of RAM daily, I think getting down to a requirement of 512bytes was a pretty good effort on my behalf

[ailwyn]

If you want overkill then why not an Atmel NGW100 (AVR32 Linux)? Bit of a large footprint (about the size of a CD case) but already has serial/usb/SD/FTP/HTTP? (linux could be stripped back to speed up the boot/response time), and plenty of people have added LCDs (Sony PSP screen for flashy or 2 or 4 line LCDs for practical), and I'm sure adding wi-fi/bluetooth would not be that big a task. I think they are about £60 for individual items, but for larger numbers you could get a discount no doubt.

(Depending on the final list of extras) you should be able to hit the £100 taget.

The only question mark would be around hitting the 8192 baud on the serial, but I would think that using the divisor in the same way as on a PC you should be able to control the serial port clock sufficiently.

If this approach were taken, then you would also have the basis for a Linux/Mac ElanScan program.