injector related troubles

[Twayblade]

Here we go again, another injector related post. Long story short, broke down,( 1991 M100SE Turbo) could just about drive car (on what felt like 2 cylinders) and had to be relayed home Norfolk to Herts
injector No 2 reading 1.2 ohms - disconnecting it allowed the car to run on 3 cyl (as mentioned and explained in other posts) Now, I have read the advice in other posts and the Wiki article but being a plonker still managed to break the connector and drop the clip (staple) down behind the Plenum, and I can't see or find it. to make matters worse I poked an uninsulated flexible magnetic pickup tool down the central gap in the plenum where I dropped the clip in the hope of retrieving it and managed to short something to ground!!----no idea what, I think the alternator is in that vicinity?
Q1 does anyone have good images of the rear of the engine under the Plenum just so I could get an visual idea of whats there and the layout?
Q2 Can you still obtain the connectors and clips?
Q3 Has anyone tried these injectors (4Pcs Oem 8170866110 Fuel Injector For Isuzu For Impulse 1.6L 1991-1992 Fj559 17089116 from Amazon) ? any comments?
Q4 Any replacement injector recommendations?
thanks in advance for any help
Twayblade

[dapinky]

Sticking the uninsulated stick down there could have hit either the alternator or the starter motor - but both of those 'big' terminals should be covered with a rubber boot to prevent such things from happening.

Anything else that you may have shorted out would probably blow a fuse more than spark and fizzle, so I am still expecting it to be the alt or starter.

Getting the clip back is a matter of time and luck - I have no idea of current availability, but would expect a bent springy wire to do the job fine. Broken parts are always tricky to advise on, but if it's the electric socket, then there must be something to do the job as the Bosch-style injectors are used in many cars.

The injectors you link to would not be my choice - they are a make I've never heard of, and they originate in China - the one review on Amazon suggests they don't work for whatever car they fitted (so may or may not be an issue for an Elan).

If you are going down the "cheap Chinese" injector route, then there are far cheaper units out there (direct, not drop-shipped on Ebay or Amazon).

[Twayblade]

Miracles do happen, I found the clip!
I have now removed all the injectors (8240 17089116 Delphi) think these are probably the original fitment.
As I mentioned before, no2 injector is measuring low at 1.2 ohms , all the others are around 2.0 ohms so I am pretty sure this is the issue.
Dave has implied that the cheap injectors I gave the link too on Amazon wouldnt be his choice so I looked to order a replacement set of PL-320 from RC Engineering, but appeared to be met with a no ship to the UK message? -am I doing something wrong?
Does anyone have any recomendations for standard injectors?

[mattdovey]

Been down this route. Your #2 injector is defiantly the problem. I dont have any reconditions unfortunately for injectors.

[Twayblade]

Spent the best part of yesterday trying to sort a set of replacement injectors----not easy!
Rock Auto offer a GB remanufacturing option (listed under the 1991 impulse 1.6L Turbo) @£25 per injector plus shipping where you purchase then send them your injectors, but i'm a little nervous about going down that route just in case my injectors disappear into the ether! Has anyone used this service? The Standard Motor Products FJ559 injector @£95! works out at over £500 for a set with shipping
RC fuel injection appear not to ship to the UK,
SJ sports cars RC PL2-0320 are also very expensive
PNM have no listing for injectors
I know there are the options on Ali Express, Amazon etc but without having some idea of how good these items are i'm reluctant to purchase
---------Help!!

[dapinky]

The problem with going for the "remanufacturing" option is knowing what they include and what they don't cover - many such services are "just" an ultrasonic clean, with new filters and 'O' rings...... which is fine for what it is (although £25 each sounds dear to me). I had a set done many years ago and it really improved the running of the car as all units were flow-measured prior and post work, and were back to OE delivery rates.

However - if the electric bits have failed, then the injector won't do what it should, and the company will return it as 'scrap'. At that point, you may have 3 clean units, one scrap one, and a bill for £75..... whilst being no further forward.

I was able to buy a set on ebay from USA when I needed some, but that seller no longer has any stock, so cannot help any further with "bargain" sets.

I know that Mike Hopes at South West Lotus Performance Centre has injectors, but they may or may not be a bargain..... but they are cheaper than SJ's by quite a margin (and with better Customer Service!) https://www.thelotuscentreonline.co.uk/ ... 100E6574RC

[Tuga2112]

this has been posted elsewhere in the forum but i never know where to find it.

i have uploaded it to imgur


probably another one of those that should be in the wiki.. if its not already there.. just another thing on my todo list for when i retire

[Twayblade]

Thanks for that Tuga, the god's must have been smiling on me to find that clip. I had spent a long time searching for it with lights and mirrors, then decided to have a look from underneath the car-couldnt really see much, felt around in desperation but nothing, then, as I climbed out of my pit there it was on one of the pit boards! I was worried it could have somehow fallen inside the alternator. I think it may have settled somewhere and been dislodged further when I rolled the car back a bit to access the pit-----anyway I found it!

Dave- I may well end up going for the RC PL2-370 injectors you refer to. Will the ECU adjust for these OK?, i'm still on open loop.
Do you know if this injector would be compatible ? Lucas-USA D1610BA

Brand new, 30 lbs/hr Fuel Injector - Low Resistance

All manufacturer's specifications apply

OE replacement for GM, Volvo, Lotus Elan, Isuzu Impulse 1.6 fuel injectors

Replaces obsolete Bosch P/N: 0280150200, 0280150802, 0280150810, 0280150360, 0280150355, 02809150357

OEM P/N: 35172832, 10040430, 13323373

Price listed is for a single (1) fuel injector
3 Year/Unlimited Miles Warranty
Sets are delivered factory flow-matched
Fuel Injector Specifications:
Lucas-USA D1610BA
Steel Body with black factory enamel
Lucas with EV1/Jetronic electrical connector
Flow Rate: 325 cc/min at 3 BAR - 30 lbs/hr at 43.5 PSI
Coil Resistance: 2.5 OHMS, peak and hold
Fuel Nozzle: Single Pintle with 3-hole difusser plate

[Twayblade]

There seems to be a lot of difficulties associated with US companies shipping to the UK. I can't even tease a response out of some of them when you ask why. One E bay community response to the shipping question suggested-There are problems with the US at the moment due to Trump's tariffs- All I know is I couldnt place an order or get a response from RC Fuel injection, or place orders for USA listed injectors on E bay even if contact with the seller was made.
There does look to be other possible injector alternatives like the Lucas item Ive given details of in a previous post, but without being able to confirm 100% M100 turbo compatibilty its a risk.To confuse matters even further some injectors are listed for the 'Isuzu impulse' and only when you dig further into the injector compatibility is it confirmed that its the impulse L4 Turbo.

I decided in the end, to play safe and order a set of PL2-370 from SW Lotus in Lifton, Devon.


As a result of which I now have a question-Can anyone advise- whether, as these 370cc injectors deliver more fuel than the 320cc stock items and I am still running open loop, I will have issues?
thanks in advance
T

[Chas54]

I swapped my injectors with a USA set from ebay and they were good but the seller doesnt appear anymore. Prior to that i had my injectors cleaned and tested at a reliable place in Wiltshire. Although they came back with good results , when i tested them by having them plugged in to the wiring loom and resting on a sheet of newspaper on top of the engine, with the fuel rail at pressure, one still leaked a litle after 5 minutes. It was retested but still seemed good. At the time i was strugling to reach a CO limit for the MOT with an open loop system . I am now closed loop and have sorted my vacuum issues out.

But
Due to the number of times i have had the injectors out and the plenum off, I have lost a number of the cable connector 'staples' and i found on this forum some advice about making a new one from a paper clip cut and bent to size. It was remarkably easy and all my home mades are in place still.

[mattdovey]

I havent had any problems with shipping from the states. Its what's been shipped that's been the problem. I'm returning a set of injectors back to the US at the moment because they were miss sold at Elan injectors. I to have bought a set from SW Lotus and fitted them last week and they work. BUT the car is running so rich. When its cold its struggling to idle. I'm going to have a go at adjusting the CO2 at the weekend.

[Twayblade]

I had the same promlem Matt, you may not be able to adjust the CO2 pot enough to bring it within spec even with the 9930 ECU prom. The PL2-370 injectors from SWL , as you know, are 370cc delivery as opposed to 320cc for the stock items.
After fitting mine I could also tell by the exaust smell, and the idling that the car was running rich, in fact the CO2 level was 11%!
I was fortunate enough to have fitted , some time back when I had earlier CO2 issues, one of Ron R switcher PCB's with 9930 (which up to this point the ECU had been running with) and 1499 prom images, and to have a Bosch O2 sensor to hand which I had never got around to fitting. The additional wiring required to go closed loop was also present in the car fortunately, I just had to remove the Turbo exaust bung, which in the event undone relatively easily with the help of a 4ft socket extension.
The battery needs to be disconnected to clear the ECM memory when switching from 9930 and going closed loop.
I could tell from the response and the idling and from no rich smelling exaust fumes that this had improved matters, I havent had the CO2 measured but i'm pretty sure its<3%
Hope this Helps

[dapinky]

I am no expert in the electronics, but maybe someone who knows will be able to help to see if I am right or not.....

...... going closed loop should help, as the mixture will be constantly adjusted to keep the Lambda in the correct range - but I don't know if the electronics are advanced enough (in the mapping) to cover all throttle positions.

It is better to run too rich than too lean (for the engine, if not the environment!!), but too much fuel will potentially wash lubricant from the bores during the cycle. It may also have an effect on the spark plugs that you need - it may prefer to be either hotter or cooler, but I don't know if that is right, or me just making things up as I think of them.

Mathematically, a 370cc injector will deliver approximately 15% more fuel than a 320 (Lotus specified 325cc, but not really much difference), so it "needs" 15% more air to run the same mixture - it is a case of getting the ECU to provide the extra 15% air (or 15% less fuel) - and it may be a possibility to get a custom map which has the fuelling tweaked to give slightly less delivery per pulse. If it were a programable ECU (Like the Megasquirt units) it would be a very simple thing to do on my laptop in less than a minute - but that doesn't help you here.

Maybe someone who understands the ECU~Memcal mapping can give some advice.

[Tuga2112]

Maybe someone who understands the ECU~Memcal mapping can give some advice.

a very subtle way to ask Ron for a new map designed for these injectors...

[dapinky]

Maybe someone who understands the ECU~Memcal mapping can give some advice.

a very subtle way to ask Ron for a new map designed for these injectors...

Yes, but I don't know if it is a quick and easy thing to do, or if it is even possible..... I would say that the first thing to do is get one of the 370 injectors flow-tested to see that the number on the box actually corresponds to the flow rate of the unit, otherwise it is just changing numbers for no actual defined goal.

I am also thinking that 15% extra fuel could allow 15% extra boost..... BUT..... the MAP sensor wouldn't allow more than 1 bar boost before it needs changing, then the exhaust would need work, and the turbo would possibly become the limiting factor - it is all stuff that has been done before, but I don't think anyone who changed lots of things kept the OE ECU (except for a few who ran 550 injectors, 3-Bar MAP and a Garret turbo because it all just happened to work together because of the numbers involved!)......

.... but I am thinking of a simple way to get the 370 injectors to fuel the car evenly - because otherwise, whatever they are named as "upgraded" or "replacement" - they aren't.

[Twayblade]

]

My understanding is very rudementary but the same thought relating to the throttle positions outside of the closed loop requiremet window had crossed my mind, along with the the second point relating to 'upgraded' 370cc injectors.
I had wondered if the CO2 pot had any influence outside of the closed loop operational widow? surely something must have?

As you have already said, hopefully someone can provide some advice.

...... going closed loop should help, as the mixture will be constantly adjusted to keep the Lambda in the correct range - but I don't know if the electronics are advanced enough (in the mapping) to cover all throttle positions.

.... but I am thinking of a simple way to get the 370 injectors to fuel the car evenly - because otherwise, whatever they are named as "upgraded" or "replacement" - they aren't.

[mattdovey]

I have managed to get the mixture to a more acceptable level. I used my hearing and sense of smell. Nothing more advanced than that available at present. Will try and attach the laptop and run the elanscan and try and adjust the emissions from that. I have the new chip from Ron to run closed loop and have the O2 sensor. I was going to run a loom in to connect it all to the ECU but elected to leave it until this winter. What was really putting off was trying to shift that exhaust bung. If I had realised that I would be in the position I am now I would have done the work. However, the car is running much better with the new injectors.

[Chas54]

My 1991 M100 had the wiring loom connector in place for the O2 sensor. I could take a picture and post it if you want for ease of identification .
I think you have identified the biggest challenge in converting to closed loop, removing the turbo bung.

When i did mine i tried release oils soaking for a month cold , tried removing hot , tried chilling the plug..

In the end a socket on a long bar and a warm up with the hot blue spanner -- but a bit cautious with that as any white metal bearing in the turbo would not like exceesive temperature -- about 110c is close to a bad place for steam turbine white metal bearings in my experience .

Close your eyes and heave away . once its moved a bit spray again, once theres enough movement spray copiously and wind back in a bit then out a bit. Clean up well afterwards . Who knows what they put in release oils nowadays , and you wouldnt want any getting on your new sensor.

As a side note, i did consider what i would do if i damaged the thread and i did have an insert i could have used to blank the hole. This was a pre war Austin seven "new"part that was used to convert the cylinder head with the large diameter spark plug to the modern 14mm thread . Fully appropriate considering the origin of Lotus.

[chrism]

Yes in trying to avoid heat, I sprayed mine at least twice a day for around 10days - and on the day we almost dragged the car sideways with the effort - then it suddenly it just 'went'

We took turns to pull it and apply a firm, downward, two-handed pressure (through gardening gloves) and used a breaker bar that was ~1m long.

Another pal took his to a dealer who, straight away while the engine was warm, sawed off the sensor part then used a big socket and breaker bar. I think I'd do this every time (now) if EScan tells me the sensor's 'duff' but it doesn't help when removing that 'blank' for the first time in 30-odd years. I might take it for a drive first, though, in that case.

I'm not sure those slotted O2 sensor tools are of the best quality. If/when they round-off the atmosphere can become really dark...

[Tuga2112]

mine was stuck for sure. but i wouldnt describe it anything like the horror stories i hear... having a 3ft breaker bar may be where you guys keep going wrong.

i did mine when it was HOT, intentiotally gone out for a drive before trying on purpose.. just look up on youtube and you can see the process.

IMO the hardest bit was to route the missing wiring... not that it was hard. but wanting to do it "right" and not being able to get the right stuff made me take an extra few days when at the end i ended up with a 'substandard' adaptation