Lotus Elan Central

by **stevieshag** » Sat 02.12.2006, 18:31

i recently removed my plenun & cam cover, to get painted they have returned & i have now re-fitted, i have connected all pipe work & connectors, now the car wont start. I have checked that there is a spark which there is, i have also checked that there is fuel being delivered, which there is. When turning the engine over the car sounded like it had no compression, so i have checked for this on all 4 cylinders, there is no compression on 1 and 4, with about 30 lb on 2 and 3. I can see and think of no reason for this, only that maybe the timing has moved. All cams & pistons are rotating as they should.
before removal of the plenum & cam cover kermit was running perfectly.
anybody any other ideas.

I have done the paper clip test & there is no fault shown.

by **muley** » Sat 02.12.2006, 22:55

Stevie,

Sorry to hear you are having probs. What's going on around here?

Anyway, the last time I was faced with this problem on a friend's Honda - the cambelt had snapped! Took me a couple of hours to find it and it was not the most obvious thing. In your case, though, you do have a little compression on a couple of cylinders and the cams are turning so it's like the cambelt has slipped. Wierd.

Edited to add : Have you checked that crank and cams are in sync? In other words, when crankshaft mark is at TDC - is number 1 piston at top of stroke with all valves shut?

Good luck

Jim

by **clemo** » Sat 02.12.2006, 23:07

damn..

by **sheprob** » Sun 03.12.2006, 17:10

Hi Stevie,

It might be something really silly like the plenum is full of paper after being resprayed, and so the engine is unable to pull any air in!
Or you stuffed the air pipe to the throttle body with a rag or paper, and that is causing a blockage?
Otherwise, I would check the cam timing.

Hope you get it sorted out.

Rob

by **stevieshag** » Mon 04.12.2006, 23:57

thanx for the replies.
I have spoke to my mechanic mate, as soon as i told him the problem he told me the only way i will get it started is to tow start it.
apparantly if you start your engine & then switch it off fairly quickly, the fuel which has been sprayed onto the pistons does not get burnt, it will then slide down the side of the bores of the pistons, thus washing away the oil which is helping to seal the rings to the chamber. This then results in the loss of compression on all 4 cylinders. turning the engine over on the starter will not be sufficent to restart the engine.

peoples thoughts on this diagnosis please.

stevie

by **Doug** » Tue 05.12.2006, 00:39

stevieshag wrote:peoples thoughts on this diagnosis please.

stevie

sounds weird to me ? ? ?

oil gone from the rings wouldn't give you zero compression

did you do the compression test properly??

how about put your finger on the spark plug hole and turn the engine over and see if you can feel the compression? but then can you reach that hole on the Elan's engine? I can't remember.

it's such a small engine that it doesn't make sense that a starter isn't strong enough to turn it and you have to use the weight of the car to push start it.

is your timing correct?? did you CAS get moved real far accidentally when swaping out those parts?

there's no way on an Elan to spin the oil pump alone to get oil pressure going is there??

just thinking out loud . . .

where's the real smart guys ? to give more help

by **muley** » Tue 05.12.2006, 00:42

stevieshag wrote:thanx for the replies.
I have spoke to my mechanic mate, as soon as i told him the problem he told me the only way i will get it started is to tow start it.
apparantly if you start your engine & then switch it off fairly quickly, the fuel which has been sprayed onto the pistons does not get burnt, it will then slide down the side of the bores of the pistons, thus washing away the oil which is helping to seal the rings to the chamber. This then results in the loss of compression on all 4 cylinders. turning the engine over on the starter will not be sufficent to restart the engine.

peoples thoughts on this diagnosis please.

stevie

Stevie,

Sorry old son, I don't know how to say this but it sounds like complete bollox to me. Sure, if the oil was washed away (?) it might reduce the compression but a few turns, even on the starter, would/should spray oil on the bores anyway so the compression would come back.

I'm concerned because if the cambelt has slipped then I think there emight be a risk of you having a 'valve/piston interface' with disastrous consequences. Have you done the TDC check I suggested?

Cheers

Jim

by **GeoffSmith** » Tue 05.12.2006, 00:46

stevieshag wrote:peoples thoughts on this diagnosis please.

New one on me.

If it is true, how about squirting some oil into one pot - if he's correct, you should get compression back. Either way you'll get a nice black cloud of exhaust when you do start it.

Geoff

by **algirdas** » Tue 05.12.2006, 05:45

Dear Steve:

Tow starting a flooded fuel injected car is not the answer.

Until one of the brainiacs chimes in, try this: Find the fuse that powers the fuel pump for the fuel injection system. Pull it and crank the engine. As soon as the plugs clear and the engine starts to fire, push the fuse back in and the engine should fire. May be a two person job on the Elan. FWIW-From the mid-80s until the mid-90s, European manufacturers were notorious for sending to the US cars that did not have the ability to start in the winter at high altitudes. So we all learned the hard way that (i) fuel injected cars can get flooded and (ii) how to clear them when they do.

A flooded car will not wash away the oil from the rings so as to drop compression to zero. I suspect that the compression test may not have been done correctly.

Are you sure you are getting fuel to the injectors and spark to the plugs?

Has your CAS slipped?

Did you check the cam belt to make sure the cams are in proper timing to the crank?

I am having difficulty imaging how something as innocent as taking off the plenum and cam cover can trash your motor.

Sorry I could not be of more help.

Sincerely,

Algirdas

by **Doug** » Tue 05.12.2006, 06:17

the fuse for the fuel pump in a Federal Elan is behind the driver's seat (great to remove for a perfect anti-theft device BTW). Not sure in a UK Elan but likely similar . . .

by **Monty** » Tue 05.12.2006, 19:16

Stevie,

If the belt has gone u should be getting a whizzing noise which means only the bottom end is moving. Take of the oil cap and turn the bottom pulley by hand and see if u can see the cams moving

by **stevieshag** » Wed 06.12.2006, 11:17

Hi All, & thankyou all for your valuable input, i have checked the timing & this is fine, i have checked the spark again & this is fine, i cannot check the amout of fuel going into the engine but i can sure see its there.
I appreciate the thoghts on the correct application of doing the compression test, we also considered this so we tried it on another car which was running fine, & got good compression, so we can only presume what we are putting into practice is correct.
I agree with everyone that this is a strange set of circumstances, & it just doesnt make sense. I will continue to search & seek the answers..

stevie.

by **paulwatkins** » Mon 11.12.2006, 11:17

Stevie,
did you resolve this problem? what was the outcome?

Paul

by **paulwatkins** » Mon 29.01.2007, 22:31

Just bumping this back up to the top!

Steve, what was the outcome of this problem?

Cheers, Paul

by **gmacz** » Tue 30.01.2007, 21:56

Sounds like the cam belt has gone.You need to look and see if the cam is turning when the crankshaft is turning.Depending where the camshaft is sitting,some of the valves will be fully open(no compression)some of the valves will be closed or nearly closed(some compression).If a cylinder comes to rest at TDC on the compression stroke, you will get full compression on this cylinder.If the belt has stripped some teeth or just slipped,you will get the same effect,piston comes up and instead of meeting closed valves,it meets fully open or partially open valves,you will get the same result.I have never looked at the Elan setup but what can happen is that you get the cover caught in the belt and when you try to start the engine,you strip teeth or snap or snag the belt.
Yours Gmacz

by **gmacz** » Tue 30.01.2007, 22:01

Just read the original post properly,always a good idea.Hopefully some of my previous post is relevant.Yours Gmacz

by **DeeAitch** » Tue 30.01.2007, 23:22

Zero pressure? You would need bent valves or a hole in the piston for that IMHO. I doubt either in this case as the cams are turning so the valves are unlikely to be bent and how would a hole suddenly apper in the pistons? The cam belt would have to slip a long way to give zero so my bet is sticky valves or HVL's. Seen this years ago in the days of de-cokes every other year!

BTW I'm sure the ECM has a function for clearing a flooded engine if you floor the throttle before cranking?
Yep, it is in service notes section EMK2 page 8.

by **stevieshag** » Mon 05.02.2007, 23:17

ok some good news Kermit is up & running :smt041

i dont understand reason for n compression on test, can only presume it was human error. :banghead:

The reason kermit would not start n the key was the inertia switch which is located next to the battery in the roof stowage compartment, this switch cuts off the fuel supply by disconnecting the power to fuel pump, i must have inadvertanly pulled the switch up when i orignally removed the battery. :bonk: