Appalling brakes

[steble]

Hi All,

I'm new here, just bought my first Elan. It is a 1992 turbo in yellow. Test drove a couple before buying this one, and the first thing I noticed are the brakes are almost non existent. It is actually scary how bad they are, the rest of the car is great.

So can somebody let me know the best upgrades to sort this issue out please? I apologise i expect this question has been asked a lot.

I know that there are a few alloy 4 pot kits etc. available.

I have also read the thread about the astra master cylinder that looks like a good place to start.

However are drilled/groved discs worth it on the current system?
Are there any particular brake pads that make a big difference on this car?

I'm currently looking for a cheaper quicker fix for now.

Many Thanks
Steve

[theelanman]

Steve
welcome
Id suggest having a look at hi-spec
PNM engineering do a kit IIRC......
if youre on a limited budget you can get the calipers refurbed and get new discs and pads.....
just depend on how much you want to spend.....
Id suggest that this is a fairly standard upgrade and one which is a must really.....
especially if youre thinking of going faster
cheers
G

[theelanman]

pnm details

PRICE VAT TOTAL PRODUCT CODE
Lotus Elan 275mm Plain Disc Kit (15" wheels) £ 500.00 £100.00 £ 600.00 PNMJ9275
Lotus Elan 275mm Grooved Kit (15" wheels) £ 550.00 £110.00 £ 660.00 PNMJ9275G

Lotus Elan 283mm Plain kit (16" wheels) £ 500.00 £100.00 £ 600.00 PNMJ9283
Lotus Elan 283mm Grooved kit (16" wheels) £ 550.00 £110.00 £ 660.00 PNMJ9283G

Lotus Elan EBC Road Pads £ 18.50 £ 3.70 £ 22.20 PNMJ0143
Lotus Elan EBC Green Pads £ 45.50 £ 9.10 £ 54.60 PNMJ2143
Lotus Elan Mintex 1144 Pads £ 60.00 £ 12.00 £ 72.00 PNMJ9141


http://www.pnmengineering.com/lotus-ela ... rakes.html

[dapinky]

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.

Whilst you are correct in that the matter has been discussed and the question asked (as clearly you have looked to find the Master Cylinder replacement!), I have no problem with you asking again.....

...but you'll get a different answer from everyone you ask, so be prepared for a lot of contradiction - but bear in mind that I'm right, and they're all wrong

Seriously, there are so many ways to approach this, that there isn't a single easy answer.

First questions relate to what have you got, what do you want, (and how do you get there), and how much work can (or are you prepared to) do yourself, or alternatively, how big is your cheque book.

I'm assuming that you have a fully 'standard' system, which as you say isn't as great as a 'modern' car, but is far better than a 1940's Austin! - driving style needs to be adjusted to suit (thats FREE!).

If the car has been standing for a while (or even if it has been used, but not well maintained), there are quite a few things which can be done to the OE system which may take a day, but will cost little and make a big difference.

The key to the OE system is good maintenance - it's not a 'fit and forget' system like other cars.

Starting at the first bit of the brake system (and in no order of work) - is the master cylinder good and leak free? - if so, the choice is to leave it alone, or replace it with a different (better?) one.... (at this stage, I'd probably advise to leave it alone).

Then, going down all the pipes, are they all good? (including the flexible hoses).

At the front end callipers, there are a few considerations - are the 'sliders' running freely (easily replaced or cleaned/regreased), and is the (single) piston moving freely. (Again, quite easy to refurbish with either new seal and possibly clean/replace the piston) - DIY or there are companies who will do it for you.

Then onto the pads - are they in good condition? New ones are easily available in a variety of compounds (I personally love Ferrodo, but others will swear by Pagid, Mintex or EBC - but even a 'standard' set from Halfords will be an improvement over old ones) - there's a guy on ebay selling Ferrodo racing pads for a fiver a set (+P&P) - old stock, and an older compound, but they are what I use and I love them! (basically, DS2500 pads - fast road) - some people get on with 'Green Stuff' pads - but there are a number of different compounds used over the years, and some are better than others.

As for the disk itself, they are cheap enough to replace (with 'standard' plain discs - Apec DSK518 - at £25(ish) a pair delivered from ebay) - and I don't see a huge advantage to using drilled/grooved ones - the extra cooling isn't usually an issue, but if you want them, get them! if you'rs are still 'flat' and 'true' then cleaning the surface with a wire brush in an angle grinder will ensure a good contact between pad and metal (otherwise bits of rust will embed in the pad material and degrade the braking force) - so either use new pads, or clean the old ones' surface with a bit of emery cloth.

At the rear of the car there are the same calliper considerations (sliders and piston) - again easily refurbished, with a rebuild kit from USA being the cheapest way to go, if necessary.... but with the added 'complications' of the handbrake and the pressure regulator/proportioning valve(s).

The handbrake on the elan is considered 'marginal' at best - but mine work fine (until the cable snapped, but that's another story) - again, just a matter of cleaning dust/debris from the lever/calliper joint so it gets full travel, and making sure that the 'self adjust' mechanism works (or adjusting them properly manually).

The proportioning valves are meant to be sealed units (maintenance free) - but they can be stripped, cleaned and rebuilt - or replaced with OE ones, or a suitable aftermarket alternative.

That's about it, except for the most overlooked component - the brake fluid. Well worth fushing it out with new fluid, and bleeding the whole system - with 5L oif fluid for about £18 at Halfords (DOT 4) it isn't expensive to do.

Changing the fluid and getting the air out will make a big difference (if it hasn't been done recently) - air especially gets trapped at the rear callipers, and can be awkward to shift - but the trick is to bleed it with the calliper removed from the hub and twisted round so that the piston faces upwards, dislodging air trapped in the piston/handbrake adjustment bits.

With all of that done, it should feel a whole lot better - but still not like a modern car.

For a fit and forget system, you need to go for the 'modern' callipers (4 pistons per unit) - but they cost substantially more.

As i said to start with, it's down to what you want, what you can live with, and how much you have to spend, and I'd suggest that there is no single answer to suit everyone. If you get an oportunity to test other cars (at any meetings or whatever), then you will find that there is a big difference between well-maintained OE brakes, left-alone OE brakes, and upgraded calliper brakes.

[Simon_P]

Welcome Steve,

However are drilled/groved discs worth it on the current system? Are there any particular brake pads that make a big difference on this car?

No, I bought some and the only difference is that they are noisy.
Try EBC Greenstuff 0.5u which is better than the usual 0.4u - I had some issues when they were cold in the past, but I think this is more to do with the servo, so back to using them again.

as far as maintenance goes also make sure that the sides of the front pistons are clean and that you have full pad thickness - they can stick a bit otherwise. Don't use copper grease on the sliders as it tends to thicken.

When the engine is cold the Idle air valve opens to increase the revs at tickover, this lowers the vacuum in the intake and the servo provides less assistance.
if you decelerate at high revs you get more vacuum and the servo provides more assistance.
If you also brake hard the nose will dip and you get better braking.

if you brake gently it is all fairly lifeless!

[steble]

Steve
welcome
Id suggest having a look at hi-spec
PNM engineering do a kit IIRC......
if youre on a limited budget you can get the calipers refurbed and get new discs and pads.....
just depend on how much you want to spend.....
Id suggest that this is a fairly standard upgrade and one which is a must really.....
especially if youre thinking of going faster
cheers
G

Hi

thank you

Yes I had already found their website and seen what they offer. This will be the fix in the long term.

Just for now i'm looking for an immediate fix for a lot less money ideally lol

Cheers
Steve

[theelanman]

unfortunately its like polishing a t**d...........
you can roll it in sprinkles tho'......


TBH....if I were you I'd save the money for the big upgrade....in the mean time give the brakes a full monty service then adapt your driving to match the brakes........not ideal......
but the originals...and trying to improve the originals has been tried
theyve have had money thrown at them by others in the past to no great improvement

just a thought

[steble]

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.

Whilst you are correct in that the matter has been discussed and the question asked (as clearly you have looked to find the Master Cylinder replacement!), I have no problem with you asking again.....

...but you'll get a different answer from everyone you ask, so be prepared for a lot of contradiction - but bear in mind that I'm right, and they're all wrong

Seriously, there are so many ways to approach this, that there isn't a single easy answer.

First questions relate to what have you got, what do you want, (and how do you get there), and how much work can (or are you prepared to) do yourself, or alternatively, how big is your cheque book.

I'm assuming that you have a fully 'standard' system, which as you say isn't as great as a 'modern' car, but is far better than a 1940's Austin! - driving style needs to be adjusted to suit (thats FREE!).

If the car has been standing for a while (or even if it has been used, but not well maintained), there are quite a few things which can be done to the OE system which may take a day, but will cost little and make a big difference.

The key to the OE system is good maintenance - it's not a 'fit and forget' system like other cars.

Starting at the first bit of the brake system (and in no order of work) - is the master cylinder good and leak free? - if so, the choice is to leave it alone, or replace it with a different (better?) one.... (at this stage, I'd probably advise to leave it alone).

Then, going down all the pipes, are they all good? (including the flexible hoses).

At the front end callipers, there are a few considerations - are the 'sliders' running freely (easily replaced or cleaned/regreased), and is the (single) piston moving freely. (Again, quite easy to refurbish with either new seal and possibly clean/replace the piston) - DIY or there are companies who will do it for you.

Then onto the pads - are they in good condition? New ones are easily available in a variety of compounds (I personally love Ferrodo, but others will swear by Pagid, Mintex or EBC - but even a 'standard' set from Halfords will be an improvement over old ones) - there's a guy on ebay selling Ferrodo racing pads for a fiver a set (+P&P) - old stock, and an older compound, but they are what I use and I love them! (basically, DS2500 pads - fast road) - some people get on with 'Green Stuff' pads - but there are a number of different compounds used over the years, and some are better than others.

As for the disk itself, they are cheap enough to replace (with 'standard' plain discs - Apec DSK518 - at £25(ish) a pair delivered from ebay) - and I don't see a huge advantage to using drilled/grooved ones - the extra cooling isn't usually an issue, but if you want them, get them! if you'rs are still 'flat' and 'true' then cleaning the surface with a wire brush in an angle grinder will ensure a good contact between pad and metal (otherwise bits of rust will embed in the pad material and degrade the braking force) - so either use new pads, or clean the old ones' surface with a bit of emery cloth.

At the rear of the car there are the same calliper considerations (sliders and piston) - again easily refurbished, with a rebuild kit from USA being the cheapest way to go, if necessary.... but with the added 'complications' of the handbrake and the pressure regulator/proportioning valve(s).

The handbrake on the elan is considered 'marginal' at best - but mine work fine (until the cable snapped, but that's another story) - again, just a matter of cleaning dust/debris from the lever/calliper joint so it gets full travel, and making sure that the 'self adjust' mechanism works (or adjusting them properly manually).

The proportioning valves are meant to be sealed units (maintenance free) - but they can be stripped, cleaned and rebuilt - or replaced with OE ones, or a suitable aftermarket alternative.

That's about it, except for the most overlooked component - the brake fluid. Well worth fushing it out with new fluid, and bleeding the whole system - with 5L oif fluid for about £18 at Halfords (DOT 4) it isn't expensive to do.

Changing the fluid and getting the air out will make a big difference (if it hasn't been done recently) - air especially gets trapped at the rear callipers, and can be awkward to shift - but the trick is to bleed it with the calliper removed from the hub and twisted round so that the piston faces upwards, dislodging air trapped in the piston/handbrake adjustment bits.

With all of that done, it should feel a whole lot better - but still not like a modern car.

For a fit and forget system, you need to go for the 'modern' callipers (4 pistons per unit) - but they cost substantially more.

As i said to start with, it's down to what you want, what you can live with, and how much you have to spend, and I'd suggest that there is no single answer to suit everyone. If you get an oportunity to test other cars (at any meetings or whatever), then you will find that there is a big difference between well-maintained OE brakes, left-alone OE brakes, and upgraded calliper brakes.

Well that's probably the best and most in depth response I've ever had on any forum. Thank you very much.

To answer a few of your points, generally I try to find time to do all work to any car myself.

I was planning to start by bleeding the brakes at the weekend.

I have also seen the ferrodo pads on ebay for £5, going on your statement I will order them now and give them a go.

I am never convinced by drilled and grooved discs actually doing anything. Only thing they are good for generally is they look nice.

Basically it would seem the best thing for me to do is give the brakes system a good service and the Ferrodo pads and change discs if required. Maybe change the master cylinder and go from there for now. This covers the immediate fix.

Then in the future I will invest in some 4 pots.

I will take the lotus on the track at some point, but not until I have some better brakes lol.

[dapinky]

I will take the lotus on the track at some point, but not until I have some better brakes lol.

I've used mine on track with various combinations of 'improvement' - my current set-up is good enough for my track ability!

There is no doubt that the most cost effective (and availlable!) upgrade is the PNM one, and will give better brakes than anything you will achieve from the OE setup - to do the job 100% pukka though, the rear brakes will need some attention, if only to maintain the balance between front and rear....

.... but (and not saying that my brakes are brilliant, or that I'm as good as Emmerson Fittipaldi) I've been on track with an elan that had all 4 brakes upgraded to PNMs, and he wasn't outbraking me (at Llandow) - eventually it comes down to how the heat gets dissipated when hot, and how sticky the tyres are on the tarmac.

The main thing is to anticipate where you will need to stop, and hit the pedal accordingly! (oh, and hope for the best!)

[Nickydee]

Just to say I am running grooved discs and those Ferrodo pads, the latter fitted in conjunction of changing and bleeding the brake fluid and when I first got the car which made a massive improvement. However this work increased the tendency for the rear brakes to lock up and for the car to be unstable even under light braking. I then replaced the rear proportioning valves and now the car pulls up dead straight without premature locking.

While not up to the standard of the two relatively high performance modern I also drive, the brakes are now in my mind adequate enough to give me confidence to drive the car in a spirited fashion which wasn't the case when I first bought it.

[steble]

Just to say I am running grooved discs and those Ferrodo pads, the latter fitted in conjunction of changing and bleeding the brake fluid and when I first got the car which made a massive improvement. However this work increased the tendency for the rear brakes to lock up and for the car to be unstable even under light braking. I then replaced the rear proportioning valves and now the car pulls up dead straight without premature locking.

While not up to the standard of the two relatively high performance modern I also drive, the brakes are now in my mind adequate enough to give me confidence to drive the car in a spirited fashion which wasn't the case when I first bought it.

This is useful info thank you

This sounds pretty much what I was thinking of doing for now before moving onto the 4 pot kits

[Enright]

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.

(snip)

If you get an oportunity to test other cars (at any meetings or whatever), then you will find that there is a big difference between well-maintained OE brakes, left-alone OE brakes, and upgraded calliper brakes.

Well that's probably the best and most in depth response I've ever had on any forum. Thank you very much.

Welcome Steve - we do like to try to be nice to the newbies (it's only later on that we turn into evil b@$t@rd$)!
Bearing the above in mind, if you put your location in your profile, because everyone and their dog has a problem with Elan brakes you'll probably find that there's another owner nearby that can demonstrate to you an upgraded setup of some sort or other.
It also helps to save you from having to repeat where you are in lots of threads later on, too.

[steble]

Hi Steve, and welcome to the forum.

(snip)

If you get an oportunity to test other cars (at any meetings or whatever), then you will find that there is a big difference between well-maintained OE brakes, left-alone OE brakes, and upgraded calliper brakes.

Well that's probably the best and most in depth response I've ever had on any forum. Thank you very much.

Welcome Steve - we do like to try to be nice to the newbies (it's only later on that we turn into evil b@$t@rd$)!
Bearing the above in mind, if you put your location in your profile, because everyone and their dog has a problem with Elan brakes you'll probably find that there's another owner nearby that can demonstrate to you an upgraded setup of some sort or other.
It also helps to save you from having to repeat where you are in lots of threads later on, too.

Haha yes will go and update my profile now

[johanvanboven]

Hi again Steve,

Except for the MC cheap and balanced upgrade, there are some other nice standard upgrades, but only to fit if you need them. (they only bring a very small % more)

1. As mentioned somewhere above, the e-bay Ferodo brake pads have a bit more bite than the original ones. Worth to change them for that price.
2. If you need brake discs, Brembo Max are also a bit better and look nice aswell.
3. Steel brake lines at the front. HEL makes them with attachment in between for a good fit.

And after a clean-up of calipers and restriction valves, this will bring you to a satisfactionary brake feeling, almost as a new car, but might be not enough if you want to hit the track.

Up to you what you want to do with your car.

You can have a try if you want when would be there for the YLD in Belgium.

See http://www.ypreslotusday.be/pages/yld2015-english.php

And topic YPRES LOTUS DAY 2015, 14th, MAY

Hoping to meet you,

Johan

[steble]

Hi johan,

Thank you again for the useful advice.

And thank you for the invitation, the Ypres event sounds great I would love to come.

Being on a Thursday in May, might make it a bit difficult for me though. I will look into it and get back to you.

Thanks
Steve

[norman lovie]

might be worth going to your local MOT station and putting it on the brake test rollers - see if you have a significant front bias ( i.e. the rears are doing not a lot)
then use the hand brake and see what difference this makes
this data will help to point towards the immediate service needs

[nicowalker1]

I'm a bit late in here.

I have standard brakes all round other than the rear hub upgrade.

The car was an absolute death trap when I first bought it, veering off and locking up at random under braking.

The fronts where fully refurbed with new disks and the same ferodo pads Dave mentions

The rears were also refurbished, the fisrt time I didn't relace the pistons, it turns out the spiral thread can wear causing the handbrake to slip, another refurb and new pistons was then completed.

I feel the car now brakes just as I would expect a car from 1990 to brake...

In hindsight, I could have upgraded to hispecs fo a similar amount of money without the same hassle.

(Has the rear hispec issues been fully addressed yet?)

[vinnie]

I have read this thread and would like to ask the question about brake peddle travel. I have refurbished my rear calliper's and replaced my rear hubs .
I have PNM front upgrade and Green stuff pads all round. Have bleed the brakes several times I believe that all air is out but the brake peddle still travels about 2 to 3 inch before it becomes firm is this normal?

[lotusflasherman]

I have read this thread and would like to ask the question about brake peddle travel. I have refurbished my rear calliper's and replaced my rear hubs .
I have PNM front upgrade and Green stuff pads all round. Have bleed the brakes several times I believe that all air is out but the brake peddle still travels about 2 to 3 inch before it becomes firm is this normal?

I'm running OE setup on mine regarding calipers and master cylinder and I get about 2" of travel with handbrake off and pedal still has about 3 1/2 to 4 " to go to carpet, as estimate - bit tricky trying to push pedal and measure and work out arc of travel etc, when grovelling in the footwell. If the piston bore of your calipers is more than standard you should expect slightly more travel.

There is always a bit of 'mechanical slack' in the system, small movements in the pedal linkage and servo operating rod, which has an internal clearance, means the pedal moves a bit before anything happens but If your car has a high mileage you may find the pin that connects the servo to the top of the pedal has worn a bit. A little bit of extra movement up there is amplified by the length of the pedal.

[vinnie]

Thank you for your reply. I was thinking I may need to change the master cylinder. I have an S2 - with 46k miles.