K & N air filter question

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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby dapinky » Fri 31.07.2009, 18:18

Personally, I think we're all being a bit too OTT with the science here (except for Phil, who I admire and respect - and is actually building a car to be a competetive racer, and as such, every extra horse makes a difference).

For the rest of us - lets be honest - what real world difference will you see with a claimed 5 bhp (just an example!) increase during your daily commute.

As such, and with far easier ways to improve the power, you just need to look at your reasons to own or not own one, and decide for yourself.

I went for the 'middle ground' of a K&N filter inside the trash can, as I'm not too bothered about the chavvy noise, or the slight (possible) reduction in filtration, or anything else - but it suits me to have a unit that i wont have to replace!

As for the theory of hot air being less powerful than cold air - YES, IT IS - FACT!

I could explain the science, but very few would understand it, and if you did, then you know it already :lol:

In laymans terms there are less molecules of oxygen (and every other gas in 'Air') in a less-dense charge to the engine - the turbo will (by definition) compress the air, which has a double-edged sword effect - compressing it gets more Oxygen into the engine, but also increases the heat in the gas (simple physics - remember Charles, Boyle, Henry and all them other clever blokes who decided these things!), which means that it will be less dense than it could be.

With it so far :?:

We have a charge cooler to bring the temp down a bit after compression, which should put it back to ambient (ish)....

...however, by increasing the boost pressure, you increase the temp increase, decrease the time the 'hot' air stays in the chargecooler, and therefore the final temp is going to be higher :?

Whether there is more free O2 in a hot mix under more pressure, or a cool mix under less pressure is another arguement - suffice to say that nothing is linear with the calculations, air pressure and air quality all make a difference - and you will develop more power driving through a leafy forrest than you will in a smoggy city - but I bet you can't tell the difference!

Bottom line - if you want one, get one (it's your car) - but don't ask me to convince you one way or the other :wink:
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...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby ektrolleyboy » Fri 31.07.2009, 19:01

I undestand and respect the responses. But the geek in me would love to know if there is a scientific benefit to an induction kit in our cars? Or not, as the case may be. I reckon there must be but we're probably going outside the realms of what's possible to measure and achieve or realistic to achieve within ourselves.
So... I guess cosmetic and aural will make the decision of the masses!
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby rip » Fri 31.07.2009, 20:18

dapinky wrote:As for the theory of hot air being less powerful than cold air - YES, IT IS - FACT!


I wasn't doubting that, I was just throwing the chargecooler into the discussion. 8)

I agree with your point though. You may see a small difference by fiddling with induction compared to the larger performance loss due to a minor error in ignition timing for instance.
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby dapinky » Fri 31.07.2009, 20:50

ektrolleyboy wrote:So... I guess cosmetic and aural will make the decision of the masses!


Probably mainly the cosmetic side :smt023

rip wrote:
dapinky wrote:As for the theory of hot air being less powerful than cold air - YES, IT IS - FACT!


I wasn't doubting that, I was just throwing the chargecooler into the discussion. 8)

I agree with your point though. You may see a small difference by fiddling with induction compared to the larger performance loss due to a minor error in ignition timing for instance.


Iain, sorry if my entry sounded like a direct challenge - it certainly wasn't intended that way :( - just trying to make the point.

And i'm also pretty sure that a degree or 2 on the base timing will make more difference than anything else :smt023
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby rip » Fri 31.07.2009, 21:17

dapinky wrote:Iain, sorry if my entry sounded like a direct challenge - it certainly wasn't intended that way :( - just trying to make the point.

And i'm also pretty sure that a degree or 2 on the base timing will make more difference than anything else :smt023


Sounds like we agree then. :banana:
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby theelanman » Sat 01.08.2009, 01:56

so in summary
cold air..... good
hot air...... not good
induction from top...... bad
induction from bottom end..... good
room for induction on top...... good
no room for inductionon bottom end....... bad
expenditure on top end induction...... not too good
expenditure on bottom end induction...... not good...and possibly very expensive unless you redisgn the front end
conclusion
stick with trash can and k&n std type filter....
at the end of the day with a 2.25" exhaust and a chip whats 5bhp (max) :roll:
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby F1 LOTUS » Sat 01.08.2009, 23:52

As ever, the guys at Autospeed have covered this extensively :)
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110281/article.html
For further info' search their site for 'intake' etc - loads to read :D
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby nitroman » Sun 14.08.2011, 00:58

Here's what Wiki says about MAF (Mass Air Flow, the alternative to MAP-based EFI systems) flow sensors used with a K&N filter:

"The mesh on the MAF is used to smooth out airflow to ensure the sensors have the best chance of a steady reading. It is not used for measuring the air flow per se. In situations where owners use oiled-gauze air filters, it is possible for excess oil to coat the MAF sensor and skew its readings. Indeed, General Motors has issued a Technical Service Bulletin, indicating problems from rough idle all the way to possible transmission damage resulting from the contaminated sensors. To clean the delicate MAF sensor components, a specific MAF or Electronics Cleaner should be used, not carburetor or brake cleaner. These are alcohol or CFC-based solvents, rather than the harsh petroleum distillates used in the other cleaners... The sensors should be gently sprayed from a careful distance to avoid physically damaging them. Manufacturers claim that a simple but extremely reliable test to ensure correct functionality is to tap the unit with the back of a screwdriver while the car is running, and if this causes any changes in the output frequency then the unit should be discarded and an OEM replacement installed."
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby superbad » Sun 14.08.2011, 14:04

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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby giles.holland » Fri 24.02.2012, 00:13

The K & N site recommends this filter for our cars, is ths right? I thought it would be the larger rounded one.

http://www.knfilters.co.uk/images/l/E-2360.jpg
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Lotus54 » Fri 24.02.2012, 04:55

I knew a guy that did oil testing. Said he could always tell when someone had a K&N filter. Much more junk in the oil.
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Monty » Fri 24.02.2012, 13:07

Lotus54 wrote:I knew a guy that did oil testing. Said he could always tell when someone had a K&N filter. Much more junk in the oil.


How can junk get in to the oil from the air filter :?
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby DaveB » Fri 24.02.2012, 14:16

giles.holland wrote:The K & N site recommends this filter for our cars, is ths right? I thought it would be the larger rounded one.

http://www.knfilters.co.uk/images/l/E-2360.jpg


looks about right to me. :smt023
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Lotus54 » Fri 24.02.2012, 15:22

Monty wrote:
Lotus54 wrote:I knew a guy that did oil testing. Said he could always tell when someone had a K&N filter. Much more junk in the oil.


How can junk get in to the oil from the air filter :?


Past the air filter, into the engine. It then ends up in the oil.
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Monty » Sun 26.02.2012, 22:35

Lotus54 wrote:
Monty wrote:
Lotus54 wrote:I knew a guy that did oil testing. Said he could always tell when someone had a K&N filter. Much more junk in the oil.


How can junk get in to the oil from the air filter :?


Past the air filter, into the engine. It then ends up in the oil.



I don`t think so, Airfilter is to stop particles getting in to the intake system, ie to stop the injectors getting blocked :? Got nothing to do with oil!
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Lotus54 » Sun 26.02.2012, 23:12

Monty wrote:

I don`t think so, Airfilter is to stop particles getting in to the intake system, ie to stop the injectors getting blocked :? Got nothing to do with oil!


Injectors getting blocked? That is solved by the furl filter- no air through the injectors. (although air past the outside of the nozzle with junk in it can get deposits on the nozzle)

Dirt through the air filter = dirt in the combustion chamber= dirt on the cylinder walls = dirt in the oil.
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Monty » Mon 27.02.2012, 19:31

Lotus54 wrote:although air past the outside of the nozzle with junk in it can get deposits on the nozzle


Thats my point, hence the use of an air filter. I know what the fuel filter is for and the Oil filter, oh and the Air filter, the clue is in the name



Dirt through the air filter = dirt in the combustion chamber= dirt on the cylinder walls = dirt in the oil.



Theres no way dirty can get passed the oil rings unless there`s marks/damage to the rings or the cylinders but that wouldn`t be caused by a K&N. air filter is to keep the Air intakes/system clean and to stop dirt deposits building in the combustion chamber ie on the pistons and valves and also protects the turbo as that`ll be the 1st thing to see shite being sucked in.
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Re: K & N air filter question

Postby Peter_W » Tue 28.02.2012, 08:21

.
PART 4: HOW DOES OIL CONTAMINATION OCCUR?

Obviously it’s the internet, so I’d look for corroborating information from additional sources before putting strong reliance on the information.
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