Gear Change problems

[dans]

Hi all,

Having had some problems for a little while with my gear change and recently changed the cables to the AB ones.

Unfortunately whilst it has improved the shifting overall it hasn't fixed the main problem. Maybe made it more apparent!

When shifting from 4th to 3rd it is very "graunchy". Almost feels like an uncomfortable cog-on-cog grind! The other gears feel ok I think.

Any suggestions?

I am thinking:

1. Ongoing shifter cable issue? - I think unlikely
2. Control box issue ? - Worn bushings or similar?
3. Gearbox issue ? - Please say it ain't !!!
4. Clutch issue ? - Clutch is 2 yrs and 8K old so I hope not!


Thanks,
Dan

[Sy V]

Dan

1. Ongoing shifter cable issue? - I think unlikely - so do I
2. Control box issue ? - Worn bushings or similar? - Wouldn't you get the same syndrome from 2nd to 1st (although I realise that you would rarely do this with the car moving).
3. Gearbox issue ? - Please say it ain't !!! It ain't (but I think we might be lying)
4. Clutch issue ? - Clutch is 2 yrs and 8K old so I hope not! Doubtful.

Hope someone has a better prognosis...

[dans]

Thanks Sy..

Think I am just going to have to risk it at Castle Combe,a and be gentle. Probably regret it if I do, regret it if I don't.

Then get someone to look at it next week.

Dan

[Sy V]

How many miles is on the car Dan?

Mine needed rebuilding at about 105K miles. But, I know this isn't a true measure as some people are far heavier on clutches and gearboxes than others.

[dapinky]

Dan,

I've been following this thread waiting for someone with specific knowledge of Elans to pipe up and chip in.

From general gearbox knowledge, i would agree almost wholehartedly with our estemed administrators comments, except i'd probably be the bearer of even worse news and not just try to appease your doubts.

All the symptoms point towards worn syncro rings/hubs

Have you changed the gearbox oil?

If so, were there any bronze bits in the oil?, or did it have a metalic 'sheen' to it?

Basically, the syncromesh is a clever system of angled sliding cogs which ensures that the actual gear rings are spinning at the same speed when they engage - they are usually the first thing to go on any gearbox which has had an active life with a spirited driver! Especially as it seems to be the 4 to 3 shift, as that is where most people would 'need' to force the stick a bit, and promote wear.

Good news it that it can be checked for/ruled out easily. Also (if it is present) it isn't the end of the world (although i expect it's more of a pain than the £6 and 2 hours labour i would be used to!).

Now, the older ones on here will know all about double-declutching, but thats how you tell if its the syncro rings. (alternatively, a slow (3 second) gear change.

Drive the car in 4th at 30 mph, dip the clutch, slip it into neutral, let the clutch up, dip it again slide into 3rd, (having raised the engine revs slightly in between times).

If no graunch, then the cables and cogs are fine, and its the syncro rings!

A simple oil change may be enough to clear out some crud and make them okay for a bit longer, but as long as you slow down the gearchange a bit, and match the engine revs, it will serve you well for years!

You don't NEED to double de-clutch all the time, just take it steady and not 'bang' it through the gears.

I know this isn't what you want to hear on the eve of a track day, but it may help you to more acurately diagnose the problem.

Just remember, any gearchange can be made smooth (with or without syncromesh) by accurately matching the engine revs between the selected ratios!

[dans]

Thanks Dave.

Double declutching and taking it easy on the change has been my method for the last few weeks, so I'm getting handy at it now!!! A bit of hesitation between gears make s all the difference. Will just have to try and remember it tomorrow.

Obviously not a job for tonight but anyone know what is involved if it is indeed the synchro rings? I can feel a Project JULY coming on!

The car has 123K on it now Sy. So it's getting on a bit I guess!! (from all the bits i need to replace!!!)

Cheers,
Dan

[dans]

Well, the gearbox performed beautifully on the track on Saturday. But was crappy all the way there and back again. Someone must've decided to bless me!! Even the instructor said it seemed fine to him after I'd warned him about it.

I changed the transmisson fluid on Friday afternoon, so maybe that helped smooth things out, as Dave suggested. The old oil looked pretty manky, and I would say it had a bit of bronze metallic sheen to it

May go and visit a specialist next week foir an opinion. Any other comments before I do?

Thanks again,
Dan

[Monty]

Dan,

Does sound like a gearbox problem rather than a cable adjustment


BTW i do have a spare gearbox which came off Simons (Kuching) project car which Dico bought and stripped but the car wasn`t a runner so never got chance to test the box but it`s believed to be a low mileage.
PM me if u`r interested.

[Candles]

I've had the gearbox out and re-bearinged it, as well as fitting the Quaife. Once inside the 'box, the parts are like a little sewing machine: Little plungers and springs everywhere. Easy to mess up and requires lots of specialist tools to pull the shafts apart. I would strongly recommend that even the most enthusiastic DIY mechanic left this part to a gearbox specialist. However, the removal of the gearbox is 'just a load of bolts' and manhandling: Something that can be accomplished even in a driveway and comprises most of the labour cost of the operation. So, an obvious choice for the thrifty would be to remove the gearbox yourself and leave the internals to a specialist.

By the way, if 3rd is on the way out, there isn't any point just replacing the 3rd gear synchros. Do the whole gearbox, springs, bearings, everything. Fit an LSD if you can as well. How do you spell 'project creep?'

Candles.

[lotuska]

Where do you go about getting parts for the gearbox??

Bearings ok, no problem, but what about gaskets, syncros etc...

I'm starting to notice that I can beat the 3rd gear syncro.

[Kjeld]

Funny, I posted a nearly identical issue a few days ago in the transmission section. 3rd suddenly crunchy. Everything else fine, at 71k. Thinking the clutch is not great though.

In thinking about the past few days, I think I am responsible. First, the gearbox oil has not been changed in 3yrs and 30k. Bad boy.

I have also wondered if my long standing, so to speak, issue of being too tall for an M100 has maybe contributed. My legs are canted all around the steering wheel, with nearly a perpendicular angle to the floor. To shift, I have literally lift my left leg over the clutch. I have caught myself a little late disengaging when pulling out of gear a number of times.

All this said, anyone think new oil would help in any way?... dumb question.

[algirdas]

Dear Kjeld and Dan:

I followed the advice of others and recently changed my gearbox lube to Redline MTL. I have to say that it helped my box shift more quickly and smoothly. I wasn't beating my synchros with the old lube in it, but it just seems to shift more easily and quickly now even with the higher effort required by Dave's MKII short shift kit.

Try this first and be prepared for massive brain damage in getting the speedo takeoff bolt back in.

Dan-if that fails, I am pretty certain that Alan Voights can rebuild your box, but I am also fairly certain that the cost with them could be pretty steep. May want to think of them as the last possible option.

Kjeld-if I understand your description correctly, it does not appear to me that your drving habits had much of anything to do with your dodgy third gear.

Sincerely,

Algirdas

[DeeAitch]

Try this first and be prepared for massive brain damage in getting the speedo takeoff bolt back in.

You don't want to drop anything down the big hole you will be left with so my recomendation is don't remove the bolt. Loosen it a few turns, rotate the keep plate out of the way and nip it up again. All this before lifting the speedo drive out (Don't forget to clean the area first, there will be stones, grit etc just waiting to find a new home ).
Better still fill it through the plug on the side of the box, assuming you can be bothered to remove it and get a new 'filler' type plug to replace it - much easier to get to. Can't find it right now but details are on LEC somewhere.

[GeoffSmith]

Can't find it right now but details are on LEC somewhere.

Here you go. That's GOT to be the first upgrade.

[dans]

I did change the transmission fluid with some standard stuff on friday. So I will change to the Redline soon, just use the current stuff a bit to flush it out.

However, I might be being dense but I just don't get this "drain plug replacement" thing.

1. How do you fill up through the drain plug? Isn't it to low...!??!
2. How do you close off the drain plug when you have finished filling?

Think i am completely missing something here.....

[dans]

Ps. did anyone else find their speedo sensor a bit wobbly in the hole? Mine was, before I moved it to fill up, and I couldn't get it any tighter when I put it back in.

I didn't take the plate and bolt all the way off and managed to get better access to the bolt by going through the wheel arch with the cover removed. A deep 10mm socket on a small ratchet did the job.

Dan

[GeoffSmith]

I think there is a factory fill hole higher up (but only on some engines) which is blanked off by the shear-off head bolt after filling ......... FFS WHY? If you can remove it and change it with a drain plug, you can put it in and out to your heart's content.

[dans]

aaaaahh... i see.... makes sense now. Thanks