Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Rambo » Sun 02.05.2021, 15:48

The rear wishbone looks quite good João. I would probably do what Dave suggests but I'd also suggest squirting Waxoyl, or equivalent, into the places where the sun doesn't shine. Should be good for another 20 years or so

If you are going down the electroplating/galvanising route you will definitely be better off removing the bushes. But perhaps if you are future proofing things it might be better off replacing the bushes now anyway ??
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 03.05.2021, 12:23

dapinky wrote:Joao,

Zinc plating comes in 2 flavours - electroplating, and galvanising.

Galvanising involves dipping the metalwork in various chemicals to clean it up, and then into a hot bath which gets the zinc to stick to the steel.

I would think that the 450C required for galvanising would have a detrimental affect on the bushes (as well as covering them in molten zinc!) - so to do it would require removal and later replacement of the bushes..... also, as the steel will be somewhat weakened/thinned from aging, it may well cause the wishbone to deform (but I've never tried it, so am just guessing)

Electroplating involves a much more scientific method of coating at 'normal' temperatures, but because of the size and shape of the wishbone, I don't know how even a coating it would provide due to the localised electric current.

Personally, I'd give them a good clean, then soak them in phosphoric acid to kill/convert any remaining rust (including the inside surfaces)...... then paint them with chassis paint (or even Zinc paint).


thanks for the tips Dave,

After using the wire wheel and flap wheel this is the progress so far.
You can see all the rust bits from pitting that i wont be able to remove using abrasive methods.
Even sandblasting fails to clear out that area

Image

Your suggestion of using Phosphoric acid soudns like a great idea for the removal of rust.
A bath in phosphoric acid may be the answer to my problem now.

I was originally thinking of electroplating anyway. from my understanding after watching multiple videos on youtube, its seems perfectly doable at home as long as i have a bucket big enough and the patience to setup the stuff correctly.

I Have plenty of time (already given up the hope to attend CC this year). so im not conserned about the localization of the coating because after the part is in the bath, i can always move the anodes around every 30 minutes to feel confident about the coating. I Also have plenty of scrap zintec sheets that I can use while im waiting for the delivery of the "pure" zinc I ordered.
Im sure the set of 50 aligator clips i got for my electronics testing will come in handy to scatter anodes aroudn the whole solution.

Im off to go shopping now for a big bucket and acids =)
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 03.05.2021, 12:26

Rambo wrote:If you are going down the electroplating/galvanising route you will definitely be better off removing the bushes. But perhaps if you are future proofing things it might be better off replacing the bushes now anyway ??


I think removing the bushes is a must for the task, I Cant see strong acidic solutions doing any good to the bushes, Even tho they may not do any harm (your the Chemist here) Im not inclined on taking the risk.

I have no idea where to get the bushes and how much they will cost. So after i do that research, I will decide If this is a replace or refit kind of task.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Saltire » Mon 03.05.2021, 15:39

Joao

Bushes are easy to get - at least compared to some things on the Lotus. When I did my suspension rebuild (F and R) two years ago, I got some from SJs, some from Kelsport. Many are available to OEM spec, but for some bushes, the only option is polyurethane. If you want to go 100% down the poly route, several of the regular suppliers (e.g. Powerflex) will do a set for the Elan.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Mon 03.05.2021, 16:11

Saltire wrote:Joao

Bushes are easy to get - at least compared to some things on the Lotus. When I did my suspension rebuild (F and R) two years ago, I got some from SJs, some from Kelsport. Many are available to OEM spec, but for some bushes, the only option is polyurethane. If you want to go 100% down the poly route, several of the regular suppliers (e.g. Powerflex) will do a set for the Elan.


thanks for the direction on the bushes.

as faras rust removal i have been doing a fair amount of research today. and foudn out the folowing

hydrocloric acid seems to be THE best rust removal option ever. however, its not very easy to source at the consentration and amouts i need in order to completely submerge the wishbone.
citric acid is a much more affordable option while being relatively efficient
phosphoric acid is the standard acid used in the "off the shelf"rust removal products, but its not as effective as citric acid, the reason why the industry uses appears to be because the reaction it does, effectively gives the metal some level of protection aganist rust

I Also came across the electrolisis approach to remove rust, which at the time of writing this message appears to be the most practical and efficient approach for me to remove rust from such bulky part as the wishbone.

Tomroow ill be going out hunting for large containers that can be used to start removing the rust from the wishbone. This first one is going to be all done off camera, but if im happy with the result, i think by the end of next week ill have a video on the topic on my channel (and ill be taking orders to zinc plate others :lol: )
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Fredjohn » Mon 03.05.2021, 16:42

I agree with Dave in that phosphoric acid is your best acid option before any painting.

It's cheap, readily available and relatively safe to use, unlike hydrochloric acid! And you have to squeeze a lot of oranges and lemons to get enough citric acid! :D

Ebay or hydroponics suppliers sell phosphoric in bulk.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Rambo » Mon 03.05.2021, 16:58

João

* I wouldn't use HCl. I used conc HCl (+HF, H2SO4, HNO3....) for over 30 years and it is very nasty stuff. Leave well alone

* you can buy citric acid in powder form and keep the lemons and oranges for the G and T's

* phosphoric acid is by far your best route. Or if you can't be bothered with that, just buy some Kurust or equivalent off EBay
Last edited by Rambo on Tue 04.05.2021, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Mon 03.05.2021, 18:58

Joao,

Phosphoric acid comes in many different strengths, but I always buy it at 81%....https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1512682570?iid=353357291481 (it can be bought over the counter at anywhere that sells hot tubs, swimming pools and tropical fish!)

In use, you can paint it on neat if you want, but to use a bath, I use it at 15-20% (so 1 part acid to 3 or 4 parts water). It can be used at lower concentrations (down to about 2%) and can be safely stored afterwards for future use.

Top tip - get a couple of 2L bottles of fizzy water from Tesco (19p a bottle) and use that to dilute the acid - the CO2 in the fizz helps as it forms carbonic acid... plus the fizz seems to make the phosphoric work quicker. Then you'll have a couple of empty bottles to store the 'used' phosphoric acid for the future.

OBVIOUS WARNING - remove the sticky label from the water bottles and use a marker pen to write that it contains Phosphoric Acid at 15%!

It won't kill you if you do drink it, but it may make you want to throw up!

Another top tip - if you can't be bothered to wait for the 'proper stuff' to be delivered, instead of using fizzy water, buy 2 bottles of cheap cola (sugar free!) and use that as the bath - it contains phosphoric acid at a 2%(ish) concentration - it will take a few days to work, but the end result will be the same (but flush it off with warm water to stop it attracting wasps).

You are correct that Citric will work - but it won't give the steel a rust-prevention coating like phosphoric acid does - it basically converts the Iron Oxide (rust) to Iron Phosphate which won't rust in the future, so it good for the inside surfaces.

Hydrochloric is very effective as a rust remover - but it IS a remover, NOT a converter. It needs careful handling and neutralising with Alkali afterwards to prevent it carrying on eating through the steel.... also, timing is important, as over use can cause the steel to turn more brittle.

If you DO decide to use it, then you can buy 5L containers from most builders merchants where it is sold as 'Brick Cleaner' for cleaning excess cement/mortar stains off brickwork..... https://www.toolstation.com/bostik-conc ... G-EALw_wcB

All in all, Phosphoric is safe, does the job perfectly, and is fairly harmless in use.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Simon_P » Mon 03.05.2021, 20:25

Having done a fair bit of zinc plating at home id say dont bother with anything bigger than your hand. Zinc plating is fairly straightforward for small things.

The problem with acid dips is that you have to get all the acid off otherwise it comes to life under your painted part. I second dapinky's comments about phosphoric and citric acids, hydrochloric (muriatic
) acid eats everything which is why it is used for cleaning the metal before plating.

The other thing to consider is what you are going to do with the liquid when you're done. Particularly with the plating kit. Your using some pretty serious industrial chemicals. We're talkin 100l of each of the plating fluids to do a wishbone successfully - where's that going? and what are you going to do if you spill it? This is dead fish and broken trees teritory!

By contrast brushing on a bit of phosphoric acid the worst you can do is hurt yourself, dilute citric acid is lemons and dilute soda christals are like washing powder.

If you do decide to use the electrolysis method, only use ferrous metals, you create rust which you need to clean off, using stainless might seem like a good idea but you create a cocktail of nasty stuff (Im not a chemist).

For painting clean items use a zinc primer.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Rambo » Tue 04.05.2021, 09:24

And I know I'm probably preaching to the converted but... although phosphoric acid is considered a "weak" acid it is still good chemical practice to add the concentrated acid to the diluent (ie phosphoric to water) NEVER be tempted to add water to a concentrated acid (particularly water to H2SO4 where you end up with a violent exothermic reaction :smt073)

And, if you want to know how bad the effects of sulphuric acid can be, buy a pint for Lotusflasherman Phil and he will tell you the tale of his battery explosion :shock:
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Rambo » Tue 04.05.2021, 10:25

For anyone else who just wants to buy something off the shelf, Steven (Par) swears by this product https://www.landroverblogger.com/product/metalmorphosis
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Saltire » Tue 04.05.2021, 10:51

Rambo wrote:For anyone else who just wants to buy something off the shelf, Steven (Par) swears by this product https://www.landroverblogger.com/product/metalmorphosis

Me too, although I swear AT the rust as well :lol:
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Tue 04.05.2021, 11:19

Mark,

A very important point on dilution of acids!

I wrote it as 1 part acid to 3 parts water, knowing that that is how it is added, NOT 3 parts water to 1 part acid....... but in my haste to write loads more drivel, I overlooked the explanation and necessity for those who can't remember their 'O' level Chemistry lessons.

Whilst Sulphuric isn't part of this discussion, and my situation was nowhere near as catastrophic as Phils, I still have necrosis in my thumb from an incident 40+ years ago where the base of my nail dissolved, and the skin has never grown back...... ah the H&S policy in Secondary Schools has surely changed to where 14 year-olds no longer get to have open access to conc solutions of nasty things!!!!!
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Rambo » Tue 04.05.2021, 15:59

I think they do virtual reality lessons on explosions, bomb making and how to blind people with acids on their i pads these days Dave :?

PS the very worst acid to work with was HF (hydrofluoric) If you didn't wash off a spillage immediately on contact with the skin it would get through and attack the bone beneath. Nasty stuff :shock:
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Tue 04.05.2021, 18:01

Rambo wrote:PS the very worst acid to work with was HF (hydrofluoric) If you didn't wash off a spillage immediately on contact with the skin it would get through and attack the bone beneath. Nasty stuff :shock:


Whilst I never worked with the 'demonic acid' on its own, I remember back in the 90's (or maybe 80's?) at work we had a sudden input of approaching burnt-out vehicles due to someone finding out that 'rubber' (which wasn't actually rubber) components exposed to very high temperatures would leach the stuff out. Exposed cambelts were one of the components thus suffering, and since then I have always worn gloves when going near to a burn-out car. Initially, we wore them to avoid contamination of the 'crime' when I was working Stolen Vehicle Squad, but it became the norm after I finished my stint there to protect myself from having my bones eaten away by an unseen and impossible to neutralise substance.....

.... before that I was convinced that Nitric was the worst stuff to have around, but since then I have learned that it is fairly innocuous when compared with others out there.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Tue 04.05.2021, 19:05

im surprised with the amout of input im getting on the topic of rust removal using acidic solutions.

everyone seem to be extremely confident about the wonders of phosphoric acid, I HAve one question in relation to the iron phosphate left behind.

can i zinc plate on to iron phosphate ?

i got a storage box exactly the size required for the task

Image

Only thing missing now is to decide which type of acid to use, and removing the bushes,.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Simon_P » Tue 04.05.2021, 22:55

The time was that to get the chemicals required you would have to go to the local Chemist and if they agreed to sell you a small quantity you had to sign the Poisons book. Now you just order as much as you want on Ebay.

Tuga, you need to do a lot more research.
You don't immerse in phosphoric acid unless the finish you want is phosphate - see parkerising, if you were going to zinc plate over phosphate it would be zinc phosphate, the hydrochloric acid is a cleaning process prior to plating so you need one acid cleaning bath, at least 1 wash bath (preferably 3)which must be clean water every time, a much much bigger plating bath, and a decent power supply.

My suggestion to you is to have a go at plating a few nuts and bolts first so that you realise what is involved. I you want to plate your wishbone take it to a platers it will cost you a fraction of buying the right stuff to do it properly.
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Saltire » Wed 05.05.2021, 07:17

I must say :agree: with Simon_P. While it is possible to do home plating, it’s often hard to control the coverage on irregularly shaped parts, and you’re dealing (as we’ve discussed) with several sorts of corrosive chemicals, which won’t do the furnishings any good at all :lol:

I respect, and am in accord with, your desire to do as much as possible yourself, but I’d encourage you to get a couple of quotes for professional acid stripping and plating. Then consider the cost differential versus the risk and quality of the outcome before coming to a final decision.

Good luck!
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby dapinky » Wed 05.05.2021, 14:12

Joao,

Whilst I agree that Simon is fully correct in his words, I would add the following:-

Zinc coating onto Iron Phosphate is not necessary, in and of itself. Both surfaces will resist rust for the future. Phosphate is a great finish to apply paint, and is the acid of choice when 'acid etching' to allow primer or paint to stick to steel.... it is often sold as 'etching primer' which simply contains a percentage of acid in the mix.

Phosphoric is still to be treated with the respect it deserves, but is a 'food grade' substance which is found in lots of things you buy from your local supermarket. It will not harm the rubber bushes, so there is no need to remove them before you start.

I would forget about Hydrochloric as it is NOT really intended for what you want to achieve - it basically dissolves away the rust, then the actual steel, as well as your hands etc - and is hard to properly (safely/legally) dispose of once finished with. It needs correct neutralising with an alkali solution, and the 'best' to use at home is probably Sodium Hydroxide (sink drain cleaner)... but that stuff has it's own issues and will cause as many, if not more, problems with chemical burns than the original acid.... it's one advantage is that tipping it down the drains is good!!!! It is very exothermic and will ruin any skin it is left in contact with, as well as make any clothes you wear look like a plague of moths has been at them. (and that is before you breath in the fumes)...... so, just leave it be!

Home plating (as previously mentioned) is a bit hit and miss, and not intended for large awkward shaped items - but a company who does it will be able to do a good job.

If you really want silver wishbones, then using a zinc spray paint on the previously dipped wishbones will look the same - but satin black (or whatever) will still offer the same protection over a phosphate coating.

If you decide to do dipping in the crate you have, I would suggest that you can get away with using a lower volume of solution by putting a polythene bin bag (or similar) in the crate, and adding a few bits of timber, stone, bricks or anything else between the crate and the liner to fill the bigger voids. I have done dipping in this way in the past by simply digging a hole in the garden the right shape, putting a bin bag over the hole, adding the phosphoric acid into the 'hole' then putting the metalwork in (it saved me a lot of time & solution when doing an old iron garden gate)..... but not strictly necessary.

A word of extra caution - if you put aluminium into Phosphoric acid it will simply dissolve over time - likewise, if any parts are zinc, chrome, copper etc plated (like bolts) - the plating will fizz away and disappear as you watch....... this can be a good thing, if it is intentional, but if you are not expecting it, it can be a pain in the arse....... The chemistry is such that it is really good for rusted iron/steel, but other materials need other solutions.

(as you have probably gathered, I am a complete advocate of Phosphoric acid, BUT I also understand the chemistry behind 'how' and 'why' it works, the limitations of it, and the correct respect to afford the handling and disposal of any chemicals).
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Re: Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

Postby Tuga2112 » Sun 16.05.2021, 10:41

Still unsure about how to deal with rust prevention
I've looked around for companies that will do acid stripping and powder coating, after a couple of unsuccessfull attempts I Found a business that serves to the public in Darlington (suggested by a work colleague) however they don't do Zinc plating. But they are confident a treatment with powder coating will protect the wishbone for over 30 years.

I Found the estimated price very reasonable, but im not sure how well powder coating will protect the wishbone when taking into account my elan is the closest to a daily driver as can be. (im thinking stone chips crack the coating and I end up worse off than Started )
Im considering getting the wishbones powder coated and after that putting a layer of undeseal, I will be trying to contact another 2 or 3 comapnies in the area to see if anyone will do zinc plating and what the costs are like.

Getting replacement Bushings.
As Jonathan Suggested, I Contacted powerflex and they redirected me to SJS saying they dont provide bushes for the m100
Apart from the usual Suspect (SJS) I can only find "South West Lotus Centre" selling them. Their website is not very descriptive, I Have no idea how many i need to order. theres multiple scenarios i can think of, and only one of them would end up cheaper that buying from SJS.

I've contacted them to enquire what i would need to order for now, but if i missed some other supplier that may be more budget friendly, please let me know.

My plan for this week is to remove the other wishbone and record a video on the job, Contact a couple more places about zinc plating to see if i can get that done for a similar cost to the powder coating, remove the bushings from both wishbones.
Im hoping that by the end of this week i will have bushings on their way, and the wishbones on someone else's workshop being treated. so i can then proceed to start the task of removing the fuel tank.

On the fuel tank topic.
Is there any consensus regarding E10 affecting the elan yet ? Last i heard was that all the US cars were already running on that for many years without any adverse effects. But given my situation at the moment, im probably in the perfect position to replace hoses if i need to, I Just dont have the spare time to do the research considering how much work i have left to do and how time consuming keeping the Youtube content flowing.
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