Tire Size Suggestions

[Elanlover]

Ok, I've bitten the bullet and ordred up some custom 17x7 wheels with the exact offset and other specs for the Elan. Now I'll need to go buy some tires (once the wheels arrive in 10 weeks).

According to this site, if we assume that the stock 15 inch wheel/tire is the correct "starting point" for speedo and odo accuracy then the stock 16 inch wheel/tire is off by less than 1% (a max 3% deviation is recommended). To go to a 17 inch tire with the same tread width of 205, a 205/40 17 tire would show 1.63% slower on the speedo. More than satisfactory.

However, I'm wondering what going to a 215 tread width tire would do for the car? Its just slightly wider so should fit in the wheel well one would think (unless others have experienced that it doesn't). This would mean going to a 215/40 would just be at the max difference of 3% slower (speedo shows less speed than actual). A 215/35 would be almost bang on accurate (.6% faster).

So, my question is really more about going to a 215 tire. Any thoughts on the handling impact to the car and if it will fit in the wheel well. I believe at least one person has used a 225 tireon 17 inch wheels (but can't remember who). Thanks all!

[bratboy_y2k]

yeah im curious about this too. i found a supplier for the exact perfect offset in 17s, they look good and are 240 bucks a set so you cant go too wrong. what are peoples thoughts and experiences with 17s?

[Elanlover]

You found wheels with a +60 offset? Perhaps you could post the info or link (not to get too far off topic).

[Foo]

Handling wise you're going to find the steering a lot heavier with a tendency to tramline quite a bit more.

Cornering performance should stay about the same although it won't feel as responsive.

Braking feel will change a lot but depends on your brake balance.

I've just gone the other way onto slightly narrower tyres than I had fitted previously. I'm not planning on going back the other way.

[bratboy_y2k]

interesting that you say this becasue somebody else posted that steering was sharper and load was lighter. and braking should be better with wider tires all things being equal.

the rims are beleive it or not believe it or not beleive it or not are at canadian tire. from memmory the 16's are exact in offset at the 17s are shy 1.5mm. the 16 is 20.5 pounds and the 17s are 19 pounds. i went to the other side of the store (this was one of their biggest sized stores in the chain) and was lucky to find a bathroom scale with a lithium battery loaded in it. so yeah i walk over to automotive with it, unbox it and start weighing while my buddy is there with a pen, paper, calculator and tape measure.

[Elanlover]

Braking should be better but Ekapol had 225's on his and reported heavier steering and less responsive turn in. Lotus knows what they're doing when it comes to handling and they consider everyting including tires. The stock 205/45 16's were the first commonly available tires with a profile of 45 and specially made by Goodyear for the car.

I'd be ok with a slightly wider tire if there were others with some experience with them. going to 215 is only marginally wider than the stock. But, its not like the 205's are bad so unbless there's a benefit to the 215's I'll probably stay with the 205's. Almost imposible to find a 215/35 17 tire anyway.

Got a manufacturer and model from crappy tire? I've looked there before and they had nothing close to the OEM specs.

[bratboy_y2k]

i dont know i just walked in and saw some 5 year old asa rims and so im calling all around town to see who has odd numbers so i can knock the price down. they will be out by about 2.85mm but we feel that is more than acceptable. ill get product codes for you as soon as i confirm the wheels fit and clear brakes.

as for 17, i think 215 would be good and as much as i love lotus i know they can bs a lot too. hell they say lsd doesnt do much and thats crap. they do things on the cheap and most of the time it works but other times they just get the job done to get it done. esprit turbo is a great example. lets make a light car but use an iron bracket thats heavy as hell to hold thexhaust, it doesnt make sense!

[Elanlover]

Ok, no offense but if you don't mind..............

i dont know i just walked in and saw some 5 year old asa rims and so im calling all around town to see who has odd numbers so i can knock the price down. they will be out by about 2.85mm but we feel that is more than acceptable. ill get product codes for you as soon as i confirm the wheels fit and clear brakes.

Now, being "out" by anything is not the "exact in offset" you mentioned earlier. There's been a LOT of people looking around for +60 offset wheels in 15, 16 or 17 inch diameters. No one seems to have found any stock wheels like this although many are close. Between +42 and +53 have been found in a stock config. The generally accepted rule is that you can go +/- 20% which means a +48 offset would be the lowest you'd want to go without more stress on the bearings than is recommended. This does not, however, guarantee you'll get the same handling performance (since you're out of spec) although others have reported that there's not too much of a noticeable difference when staying within the +/- 20% range.

Secondly, how can a wheel be out by 2.85mm on the offset? I'm not aware of any manufacturer, anywhere in the world, that would create a wheel with a +57.15mm offset. Are you? Pretty sure they all try to avoid getting into decimals when they make wheels Still, when you get the specs post them. If there's a +60 wheel out there people will want to know about it.

as for 17, i think 215 would be good and as much as i love lotus i know they can bs a lot too. hell they say lsd doesnt do much and thats crap. they do things on the cheap and most of the time it works but other times they just get the job done to get it done. esprit turbo is a great example. lets make a light car but use an iron bracket thats heavy as hell to hold thexhaust, it doesnt make sense!

Ok, maybe I'm just being oversensitive and loyal to the Lotus brand (or I'm cranky because I'm having a BAD morning) but.........why is it that whenever someone tells you that Lotus does something a certain way for a reason you take the approach that they don't know what they're talking about or are trying to blow smoke up our collective asses???

Lotus NEVER said LSD's do nothing. I posted a quote some time ago from a Lotus engineer who explained why they don't liike to put them in their cars. You think this engineer was wrong? You know more than he does? No one from Lotus said they do nothing.

Lotus does thing on the cheap eh? Then why was the Elan one of the most superbly engineered cars of its time - and the most expensive? Think they went cheap on the Elan? Do yourself a favour and try to find one of the "LOtus Elan" books by Mark Hughes (generally considered the bible on the Elan, its contruction, engineering and history) out on the market or eBay somewhere. It might do you some good to do some research into the car you bought before you make statements about what the car can take/change/modify, etc. Don't make the same mistake others have made by thinking this is just a better Isuzu just because its got an Isuzu engine in it (which Lotus changed by the way). The two cars can't even be compared on any level.

Iron brackets on exhausts make no sense? Says who - you? Maybe lotus had a REASON for using them. I sure don't know. But they're not stupid people. And I don't agree that Lotus shovels out the bs. I don't believe they bs AT ALL.

(I could use a "getting down off the soapbox" smilie about now )

Ok, back to the original question which was about anyone having REAL experience with wider tires - not just speculative answers. Afterall, I can speculate with the best of them

[bratboy_y2k]

***climbing on soapbox*** which is very British I might add

at first I wasnlt going to reply because I thought hey this is too much work and you are way too hard to talk to. on and on and on. you know it as do I. I have ethnic family so I'm used to dealing with people that are hard to communicate with plus I think people may benefit from the information.

Ok, no offense but if you don't mind..............

i dont know i just walked in and saw some 5 year old asa rims and so im calling all around town to see who has odd numbers so i can knock the price down. they will be out by about 2.85mm but we feel that is more than acceptable. ill get product codes for you as soon as i confirm the wheels fit and clear brakes.

Now, being "out" by anything is not the "exact in offset" you mentioned earlier. There's been a LOT of people looking around for +60 offset wheels in 15, 16 or 17 inch diameters. No one seems to have found any stock wheels like this although many are close. Between +42 and +53 have been found in a stock config. The generally accepted rule is that you can go +/- 20% which means a +48 offset would be the lowest you'd want to go without more stress on the bearings than is recommended. This does not, however, guarantee you'll get the same handling performance (since you're out of spec) although others have reported that there's not too much of a noticeable difference when staying within the +/- 20% range.

We measures with impromtu tools. A tape measure and a slightly flexable rod with a reflector that was literally 6 feet long. That is what we used across the back of the rim. The 16s were as I said, +57.15mm from our check. It's likely it was 60 but I choose to report what we found instead of what we guess or assume. We report what we found. Do what you wish with that information.

Secondly, how can a wheel be out by 2.85mm on the offset? I'm not aware of any manufacturer, anywhere in the world, that would create a wheel with a +57.15mm offset. Are you? Pretty sure they all try to avoid getting into decimals when they make wheels Still, when you get the specs post them. If there's a +60 wheel out there people will want to know about it.

Read previous statement.

as for 17, i think 215 would be good and as much as i love lotus i know they can bs a lot too. hell they say lsd doesnt do much and thats crap. they do things on the cheap and most of the time it works but other times they just get the job done to get it done. esprit turbo is a great example. lets make a light car but use an iron bracket thats heavy as hell to hold thexhaust, it doesnt make sense!

Ok, maybe I'm just being oversensitive and loyal to the Lotus brand (or I'm cranky because I'm having a BAD morning) but.........why is it that whenever someone tells you that Lotus does something a certain way for a reason you take the approach that they don't know what they're talking about or are trying to blow smoke up our collective asses???

I've been loyal to Lotus since 1988. It's my favorite make, I live, breath and eat the brand. I get it. One bolt to do three jobs. It's diabolical really. However to wear rose coloured glasses and assume everything they did was to put NASA technology on the road is your choice. This is the company that stole iron in the 60s from the ironwork factory across the street to build structures around the doors for crash protection. This is also the company that misplaced millions of pounds of Delorean money. I have seen enough bad original paintjobs to know they cheap out, I have some of that handiwork right now. My two friends each ave a Lotus and we know others from the LCCOBC that are into their cars and the concept and we have on many ocassions sat around loving the cars but also knowing their weeknesses. Colin Chapman regularily chose specific levels of part quality based on how long the warrenty of the car was. He routinly was known for wanting to build a car light and cheap enough for racing that would theoretically fall apart after it crossed the finish line. I love Lotus and I know they have quirks.

Lotus NEVER said LSD's do nothing. I posted a quote some time ago from a Lotus engineer who explained why they don't liike to put them in their cars. You think this engineer was wrong? You know more than he does? No one from Lotus said they do nothing.

I actually read a line from a Lotus engineer that said something about not needing LSDs in a buddy of mines literature collection. Not everything they said or do is perfect. You want to question my knowledge? Go ahead, I'm not an expert, but you can see them in much more expensive automobiles that have far more blistering performance.

Lotus does thing on the cheap eh? Then why was the Elan one of the most superbly engineered cars of its time - and the most expensive? Think they went cheap on the Elan? Do yourself a favour and try to find one of the "LOtus Elan" books by Mark Hughes (generally considered the bible on the Elan, its contruction, engineering and history) out on the market or eBay somewhere. It might do you some good to do some research into the car you bought before you make statements about what the car can take/change/modify, etc. Don't make the same mistake others have made by thinking this is just a better Isuzu just because its got an Isuzu engine in it (which Lotus changed by the way). The two cars can't even be compared on any level.

It was superb in the way that it was advanced tech for sure, based on unique tech, the price is irrelevant because thats based on numbers. If you really want to winge on cost being important go see the modern Elite and compare it and its current value to what its competitors were at the time. Price didn;t count there. As for the book I have read it. This is my second Lotus and I have had a number of books and reas a number of them. At no point did I say it was an Isuzu. Scroll back and check. Same drivetrain and thats about it. I don't understand why you would mention it. I hope you aren't assuming.

Iron brackets on exhausts make no sense? Says who - you? Maybe lotus had a REASON for using them. I sure don't know. But they're not stupid people. And I don't agree that Lotus shovels out the bs. I don't believe they bs AT ALL.

Here's one, drum brakes on the modern Elite is a good analogy. They eventually put discs in in the Excel so why not the Elite? Cost baby, cost. Now, I love cars and I love Lotuses, but to think car companies never BS about cars is pretty naive. You pay full price when you buy a new one? You believe everything the salesman tells you? Come on. Get a grip.

(I could use a "getting down off the soapbox" smilie about now )

***stepping down from the Lotus soapbox as it is reaching its limit of design***

Ok, back to the original question which was about anyone having REAL experience with wider tires - not just speculative answers. Afterall, I can speculate with the best of them

[tweetdriver63]

Well, I've not made any tire changes on the Elan, yet, but when I do, I'll stick to the stock size. I think the Lotus engineers probably knew what they were doing when they specified that.

I did have a Porsche 914 a few years ago (really loved that car!). When I got it, it had the stock sized tires on it. Other than being 15 inch, and being on the narrow side, I don't remember what the size was. Now, I was doing it more for looks than anything else at the time (I was younger, and didn't think about the performance characteristics much), so when I put a new set of tires on it, I went with the "tech tip" from the catalog of Automobile Atlanta (they call themselves 914 world headquarters), specifying the largest tires that fit the stock Fuch's Alloys, and also fit in the wheel wells without rubbing. I very clearly remember driving it out of the tire dealer and being astounded at how differently it handled. The car already handled like one of those little electric slot-cars due to its very low CG, relatively wide wheelbase, and perfect front-to-rear weight balance, but with all that additional rubber on the road, it was truly amazing. You could literally take any corner on the planet, at full speed, without even backing off on the throttle.

Now, I don't know if you'd get the same effect in the Elan by using wider tires, but it's the only experience I have to relate.

[bratboy_y2k]

car makers use the tech of the day. even high performance companies never went to the top because certain technology wasn't available at the time that was affordable. supercar manufacturers didn't use 18 inch wheels in the 70s because they were not available. stepping up a wheel size is just moving with the times. even if you stick to 205s with a 17 inch wheel (if itspossible to get the correct sidewall proportion) is not going to harm performance it can only enhance it. you are fighting less vertical rubber. steering should be sharper at the very least. i can't promise your fillings won't pop out when driving over bumps. and i can't see 215's causing any problems. Hell i know a guy that put custom 17s and custom tires on his series 1 MR2 and the thing unevenfully did what you wanted it to do at ridiculous speeds. this was in german where there aren't many ripples in the roads....

[L.G.]

There was someone here who went for 17's and was very pleased with them, Nigel perhaps? But then he had trackday tires as well so not very comparable. What you say Bratboy is essentially true, the only problem is to find a suitable tire set with 215 width that fits our Elans. The only ones that I can find are PZero Nero's on 225/35 R17 and Yokohama Sdrive's on 215/35 R17, 225/35 R17. Very limited tire choice but 225/35 R17 is an exact match. 225 may rub though (where I don't know); comfort will be comprimised as well. But, you might say the same thing on comfort for the S2 over the SE. (16 inch vs 15 inch)

I'd say just buy 205/40 R17 if you want 17's. 225 might be useful if you get mega power from the engine. Keep in mind, it'll make it equally bad when it's raining.

L.G.

[tweetdriver63]

If I'm not mistaken, LGM has 17's (I know there's a joke in there somewhere). Considering her knowledge and expertise where Elans are concerned, it might be worth getting her observations.

Marie????

[Elanlover]

She does have 17 inch wheels - not sure about the tire sizes. Never thought to ask her but good suggestion. The only meaningful feedback so far has been from Ekapol who went down from 225's to 205's and says the car handles better in turning. This would make sense to me as "thinner" tires would have less surface area and therefore should be easier to turn. Overall stickiness to the road might be more with wider wheels but they also may not fit in the wheel wells. My car has the UK suspension (Protech shocks and UK springs) so its a bit lower to the ground - and the tires closer to the wheel well coverings. 225's would likely rud the liners with a combo of corners and bumps.

Oh, and bratboy, while your comments on Lotus's notorious shortcuts may be true, they don't apply en masse to our cars. Let's not forget that the Elan, later Esprits, Elises, etc. are not Colin's cars - they're Kimberley's cars. There's a big difference. The Elan was really the first Lotus car built with a much higher standard applied to it. That's why I believe them when they tell me things are the way they are for a reason. At least on the Elan on up. Colin's cars, though lovable, are a different story.

[L.G.]

Just to add something to this thread; did anyone read an article where it said (in a small part of it) bigger wheels with the same width tires made the handling worse? I definitely remember reading something like that in Autocar's tire test last year maybe? The test where Goodyear Eagle F1 had came up first. This particular info was for 225/40 R18 and 225/45 R17. The unfortunate thing is I can't remember if bigger made it better or worse. I'll try to find my copy.

[Elanlover]

LGM has 17" wheels but stayed with the 205 width. She made a good point that I'd never considered. A wider tire will scrub speed. Always a trade off.

L.G., I would tend to think that a larger diameter wheel would, in most cases, provide for better handling (cornering, etc.) simply due to the lower profile tires they would take resulting in less sidewall flex around corners. But, what I really interested in isn't the effects of a larger wheel diameter. Its the effects of a wider tire (think going from 205's to 215's on the exact same wheel for example). Still be interested in that article if you could find it though.

[bratboy_y2k]

ok, so you believe good ole mike eh? well when he did the m100 he said they chose fwd not because of cost or convinience. he said they chose it because it offered the best handling advantage out of all the options. so when do you think they will build the fwd elise? or was he mistaken? or are the new cars rwd because of cost and/or convinience? or was he full of crap? or has physics changed in the last decade? understan, i love lotuses, but like all exotics, they were designed with gremlins. if youre going to wear rose coloured glasses make sure they are very think and very dark. you see less issues that way.

on the tire size id say the 215 17 inch variant sounds like a great option except for the lack of tires available. the next big worry is if what is available is no longer made. i thought i say a bunch of tires in the 215/35/17 size. ill have to check again. ride will be worse but i cant imagine that the drive would be nicer

[Elanlover]

ok, so you believe good ole mike eh? well when he did the m100 he said they chose fwd not because of cost or convinience. he said they chose it because it offered the best handling advantage out of all the options. so when do you think they will build the fwd elise? or was he mistaken? or are the new cars rwd because of cost and/or convinience? or was he full of crap? or has physics changed in the last decade? understan, i love lotuses, but like all exotics, they were designed with gremlins. if youre going to wear rose coloured glasses make sure they are very think and very dark. you see less issues that way.

I think you need to get educated as to why Lotus chose FWD for the Elan. Thus the suggestion to pick up a copy of the Mark Hughes book (which I have). It explains pretty much everything there is to know about the car, design choices, etc.

Back on topic..............now asking Ekapol for his thoughts.

[bratboy_y2k]

i've seen thevideo where Mike is saying those exact words explaining the choice. so it's a video vs a book. sounds fishy. sounds like Lotus.

[tweetdriver63]

i've seen thevideo where Mike is saying those exact words explaining the choice. so it's a video vs a book. sounds fishy. sounds like Lotus.

Sounds like they had to go with something GM had, and since they were looking to improve the reputation for poor reliablility, etc, they were going japanese (maybe just rumor). Front drive is always faster than rear drive, the only issue is handling (more specifically, cornering), which Lotus felt they could take care of.