Wrong header seal?

[Megwenda]

As mentioned, I have a S1 header seal mounted on a SE (pre 8000 VIN) with a S2 top and S2 header rail.

OK, I am still battling... either I can get the door glass to line up with the "A" Post (in which case it is much too high compared to the door seals), or I can get it to line up with door seals, in which case it it doesn't fit the "A" post.

Looking at RayD's image in THIS thread, I see that the header seal has a gap at the side where the front corner of the glass fits ... mine does not.



Mine has a little ear there


What does the S2 seal look like?

Maybe I am going to have to dump this S1 seal, and buy a new S2 seal (at least it is cheaper)

[Megwenda]

Now that was a good tip from Jamie..... I have been working on the assumption that the the one seal that was correct was the A post seal, and everything else has to match.

As can be seen in the pic below, the top of the A post seal curves backwards, and the glass is lying on top of it .... I assumed that the glass would have to fit under the curve, which meant the glass had to be lowered.

I loosened the two retaining buttons from the top of the seal today, and found that it wasn't fitted correctly... it needed to be pulled in tighter to the center.... doing this makes the edge straight, and allows the glass to go higher



So, tomorrow I will refit the A post seal correctly, wait 48 hours for it to bond, and then start from scratch

[Jamie N]

Dave, if you had the rubber A post seals you wouldn't need to wait on any bonding, they are sealed tight from the moment you attach them to the bracket, and you can remove them on and off all day long with no issues.

[Megwenda]

You got any for sale?

[Megwenda]

MAGIC

Received the door seals and A post seals from Jamie this morning.... didn't have much time as my social schedule is full this weekend, but couldnt wait to see what effect it would have on my header rail problem.

Stripped out the old A post seals (it was easy as the garage had not bonded them in at all). Put Jamies A post seal in, took about 5 minutes, and what a difference.... My problem is gone.... without any spacers, the header side pieces match up with the a post seal, the door glass fits tight up against both the header and the A post seals..... and I haven'even secured the top and bottom of the A post seals yet

Now I just need to reassemble the doors, do the falling pillar and intermediateries, and my car will be water tight.
Oh, and fit the new door seals Jamie sent in the same parcel, but that can be done anytime.

Thanks Jamie

Regards
Dave

[Jamie N]

You sound like a happy chappy Dave, hope you haven't been on the Absinthe!.

[Megwenda]

nope, I am more a beer, wine and (Irish) whiskey type.

[Jamie N]

nope, I am more a beer, wine and (Irish) whiskey type.

What, no Scotch? Shame on you!.

[tweetdriver63]

I've just joined this thread because it has brought me some doubt as to which header seal I need to get. Obviously, since I'm in the US, I have a pre-VIN M8161 Fed SE. I have a full set of seals, with the exception of the header seal, which I was about to order. Having read through this thread, I'm now in doubt, as the vertical drainage strip along the falling pillars of my car doesn't end straight down, but looks exactly like Dave's.

Dave Bean Engineering has the pre-8161 seal available, at a cost of $549 USD.
SJ Sportscars lists that same seal at 271 GBP (equivalent to $404 USD). Paul Matty says 247 GBP.
SJ also lists the later seal, but it is significantly less costly at 143 GBP. Paul Matty, 135 GBP.

Is there any likelihood that my car would have the later roof/hood on it, as would seem to be the case based on what has been said about that vertical drainage strip?

What is actually the difference between the two seals, and can the later seal be used on the earlier roof/hood?

[Megwenda]

Hi

DISCLAIMER: This is based on my experience with ONE 20 year old Lotus ELAN, which may have had any number of undocumented changes done to it.... your mileage may differ

Now, despite their being two types of soft tops being made, my belief/experience is that most of the original (characterised by the vertical drainage strip along the falling pillars being straight down) have probably all been replaced by the newer design as it provided a stronger design.... AS FAR AS I CAN DISCOVER, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO DESIGNS WAS THE IMPROVED DRAINAGE AT THE REAR! So, it was therefore very easy to replace the softtop material just using one-size-fits-all. Note, I am only talking about the actual soft-top material here.

Now, there was also a change in the header seal / header seal rail between the two models. AS FAR AS I CAN SEE, BOTH HEADER SEALS CAN BE FITTED TO EITHER FRAME/ROOF!
The caveat here is that one should use a matching header seal and header seal railing.

I received a pre-8161 header seal, and it didn't fit my header seal rail, so I ASSUME that my header seal rail is from post 8161

If you look at this picture of the older header seal,
pre-8161 header seal

you will see that there is a recess in the rubber where the header seal rail fits into it. The picture shows that this recess is cut at an angle of about 45 degrees (in fact, I have had to splay the side of the header seal out in order to even get the header seal rail on to it)... this picture does show the header seal rail, and shows its end as being cut at 90 degrees. The next picture may show this better

post-8161 type header rail

As the header seal was checked by SJMotors, and they are sure they supplied the early model, I assume that the header rail with the 90 degree cut is the later model, and that it requires the later header seal.... BUT, I have never seen the later header seal, so cant be sure

SO, to sumarise... Have a look at your header rail. If it has 90 degree end, then you are lucky... it should be for the later model header seal (which is cheaper, more available, and probably newer manufactured date)

NOW, all I did to get my 'old' seal to fit on my 'presumably new' header rail was to cut the header rail at the required angle to match the shape of the recess in the header seal (I also had to make it a bit shorter.. but only a few mm).

From my experience though, it may be difficult to make it work the other way... because of the angle of recess etcetera, it may not be possible to put a later seal onto the earlier header rail! At least, it may fit, but it may also leak as the header rail may be too short.... BUT REMEMBER, I HAVE NEVER HAD THIS COMBINATION TO BE ABLE TO CHECK IT

Before ordering, it may be an idea to ask for a photo of the seal, so you can check it against your header rail

Hope this helps
Good luck
Dave (enjoying having brakes that work after fitting a complete set of PNM/Hispecs front and back)

[tweetdriver63]

My car still has everything installed, but I've taken pictures of the header rail and seal to show what I've got. I didn't take a picture of the vertical drain seam just aft of the side windows, but it looks exactly like yours there. I don't think there's a way to tell if there's a 45 or 90 degree angle without removing the seal. I was surprised to see that the seal is actually in two pieces, with a seam in the front center of the rail (as seen in the second picture).

[Megwenda]

Hi

You would have to release one of the side pieces of the header rail (where it goes over the front of the door window). There are two screws to undo.
That would allow you to GENTLY (remember, the rubber may be easily torn) swing it to the side, and be able to see the end of the header seal. Try to move it just enough to see the end of the rail, so that it doesn't put too much stress on it.

Mine doesn't have a join in the middle... could be yours has been 'repaired' at some time in the past? ... or maybe the post vin seals had a join?

mfG
Dave

[Jamie N]

Don't forget the best option of all Guys.... Make a Rubber custom header seal to perfectly fit your own car, so many plus points its a no-brainer, Costs a fraction of a Spongey one, will fit you car perfectly because you made it that way, wont burst open the micro thin skin and look tatty after a short time, wont retain water and rust your latch and latch bolts, and best of all the Aesthetics, no comparison there, plus the sense of achievement and satisfaction derived .

[tweetdriver63]

Dave, without removing anything, I can pull back on the corner of my header seal and see that the carrier looks exactly like the one you pictured above (post-8161). I'm going to say that, even though my VIN is pre-8161, it appears my roof/hood is not. I'm going to take a chance and order the post-8161 seal. I suppose if it's not the right one, Matty or SJ's will allow me to send it back and get the other one.

[Fredjohn]

Just a point of info: my header seal also appears to have a join in the middle. It is in good condition, but no idea whether it is the new or old type.

Do SJS or Matty actually have the items in stock? Having a price on their website is unfortunately no indication of availability!!

However, looking at SJS they now seem to be listing all the hood seals: falling pillar, intermediate and headers: wonder if they are also actually in stock?

[tweetdriver63]

I've just put in the order with SJ Sportscars for the header rail seal. It's after hours there, so I'll find out tomorrow if they've got it in stock. I've had good luck with them so far. Normally, with SJ, if they don't have a part, it doesn't show up in the search, but that's not a guarantee.

[Megwenda]

OK
It would be great if you keep this thread updated, so we can see if I am right that one can determine which seal to use by the ends of the rail

Good luck
mfG
Dave

[tweetdriver63]

email from SJ this morning says the part is not available at this time, but they are trying to get it re-manufactured. I won't hold my breathe.

[chrisP]

I put an S2 hood on an S1 frame, but I extended the metal part of the frame at the front (the solid part at the front that abuts the screen) I added two metal plates to the sides, to make the fabric overhang the seals properly, rather than flapping around. I don't know If that will help you as I only skimmed the thread, but it may help.

Regards
Chris