Flatbed/car transport Trailer questions

[Tuga2112]

I recently tried to sell my flatbed trailer. a lot of potential buyers asked me questions about a plaques information.

my trailer is easily 20 or 30 years old. it uses land rover series 2 wheels, i estimate these were the cheapest stuff knocking around back then. so. possibly 80s -90s built
i suspect when the trailer was originally constructed, there was no such thing as "regulations" on trailers

so it turns out since i cannot prove the weight of the trailer, i think i have been illegaly using it.
i had a look online for resources on this topic but all i can find is this
https://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/trailers.asp
which only applies to trailers from 2009.
the government website only has details about my licence type permissions and no reference to the trailers themselfs.

at the moment all i know is.
I can drive a vehicle with a trailer behind as long as combined weight is less than 3500kg with my current driving licence
the elan is roughly a 1100kg vehicle.
my 4runner towing capacity is 1750kg
the trailer is very heavy, and has brakes.
since my 4runner is a 1994 vehicle. i know i dont need to worry about the tow bar certification based on the side note halfway in the page

based on my knowledge. if the trailer is less than 600kg i have no reason to worry about being stopped. by the police.
the trailer has 4 wheels, so im pretty sure as far as load spread it can hold the car (it was originally used to transport for transit vans)

id like to know if anyone knows of any information that can help me confirm if there is any regulations needed refering this trailer and if i can continue to use it without any major conserns (will need to transport a few of my cars up north when the new house gets a garage upgrade)

[Saltire]

Joao

I am not an expert, but my understanding is that this is covered by the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Briefly, this states that a trailer should have a plate which shows (among other things) maximum axle weight, maximum gross weight and maximum train weight. Certainly all the trailers I’ve ever dealt with have such a plate, normally riveted to the LHS of the drawbar. Personally, I’d be very wary of buying a trailer without a plate. With no plate, the maximum axle weight is derived from the load ratings of the tyres fitted

If I were in your shoes, I’d give Ifor Williams a call. They’re one of the leading manufacturers, and sell more kinds of trailers than you’ve done jobs on a Lotus Make friends and show interest in their products, and you might just find out the practical course of action.

[Tuga2112]

Joao

I am not an expert, but my understanding is that this is covered by the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Briefly, this states that a trailer should have a plate which shows (among other things) maximum axle weight, maximum gross weight and maximum train weight. Certainly all the trailers I’ve ever dealt with have such a plate, normally riveted to the LHS of the drawbar. Personally, I’d be very wary of buying a trailer without a plate. With no plate, the maximum axle weight is derived from the load ratings of the tyres fitted

If I were in your shoes, I’d give Ifor Williams a call. They’re one of the leading manufacturers, and sell more kinds of trailers than you’ve done jobs on a Lotus Make friends and show interest in their products, and you might just find out the practical course of action.

Thanks Jonathan,
as i said. i believe my trailer predates any regulations.
your pointers are giving me some new avenues of research.

the type of tyres on it are farm grade. allowing it to carry 1400kg x4 total wright
but the replacement im going to get will set the load rate on more than 2000kg easily. (900kg per corner)
from the research done based on your information i been within the limits easily. only thing i need to worry about is the weight of the trailer itself. which i will try to take to a public weighbridge sometime soon.

[Saltire]

You may also like this.

[dapinky]

This topic has had me scratching my head.... because I *thought* I knew the whole answer, until I tried to find a simple link to the relevant info, and then established that what I *know* doesn't help you at all - my knowledge only relates to trailers over 3500Kg (Goods Vehicles), and not small trailers.....

..... so I looked into it a bit more, and can give an answer which may or may not help you (or even be correct)...

.... First, lets get rid of what I thought was the simple way to proceed, which would be to present the trailer to a VOSA Centre and simply get it 'Ministry Plated' - this is a paper certificate which gets attached to a trailer (or goods vehicle) to alter the permitted weights allowed to be carried if the specification is changed from the information on the 'Manufacturers Plate'.... a proceedure which is common in the haulage industry (to either increase loads as the law allows, or reduce gross weights to reduce the taxation class).

Okay, so we can't do that.

Next, my knowledge is old enough that I wasn't even considering the scenario where someone with a Class B licence was pulling a trailer, as I still consider that to be 'new' drivers, and most of us will have a B+E on our licence........ then I remembered that I'm actually getting old and that there are people on here with a full licence who wern't even born when these 'new' rules started .

Anyway, onto the way forward.....

.... The 'rules' state that if you hold a Class B entitlement, you can tow a trailer as long as the total train weight is under 3.5T (I know that there are variations and exceptions, and that you have to consider the MAM of the trailer and GTW of the tow car etc etc, but the 'simple' understanding is that it all has to be under 3.5T.

This is where it gets complicated, as all weights are taken from the plates, and relate to MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass), otherwise known a GTW (Gross Vehicle Weight) to older people - and then there is GTW (Gross Train Weight) of the whole shebang (car + trailer) and can also be called MAM, Combination Train Weight, or Combined MAM.

For the purpose of this post, I will use the terms GVW & GTW as they are always different (and before anyone states the obvious, yes there ARE exceptions - like a Lotus Elan - which has NO GTW as it is not allowed to tow anything in the UK), whilst MAM can be used for either term (but is what is used in current written legislation ).

Okay, so you need to have a GTW under 3500Kg - this is considered in 2 parts..... First, you need to look at the VIN plate on your towing vehicle and see what it allows as a GTW. If it is under 3500, then you have to go on the lower figure (probably not a problem for most cars, as almost everything these days has a GTW of 3500+). Next, the listed GVW of the car *should* exceed the weight of the trailer+load.... and this is where it can get a bit difficult to get your head round some of it..... Not only from the physics aspect of it being more stable to pull something light with something heavy, but if the towing vehicle is under the weight of the trailer+load, it is outside the authority of a Class B entitlement, and needs to be B+E, C1+E or C+E depending if you are towing with a car, a dual-purpose vehicle, or a commercial vehicle... and thus you can be done for driving other than in accordance with a licence, and your insurance company may be less liable to pay out more than the legal minimum (personal injury to another person).

So that brings us back to the start point of 'proving' the weights of what you are driving - the Police will always look for the simple answer (ie, what does the VIN plate & Trailer Plate say) - and the law relates to the maximum allowed, and has no regard for what is actually on the combination.

So, you state that the 4 runner can tow 1750Kg, but don't tell me the listed GTW.... Google tells me that a '94 Hilux has a curb weight of ~1706Kg....and I am guessing that you have deducted this from the 'allowed' 3500Kg to get the 1750Kg (although I suspect that the VIN plate will probably show a GTW far in excess of that figure as the car can quite happily drag a bigger load, licence allowing!).

So to stay on the right side of the law (at first look), you could have a Trailer Weight of 1750Kg and everything is golden.

However, if your car is actually 'light', technically you may have a larger availability of weight for the trailer to remain under 3500Kg, but then fall into the trailer being heavier than the car situation.

In practical terms, the Police will look for a plate, and take it as gospel - but if they think that you are doing something wrong, there is nowt to stop them taking you a weighbridge and seeing what weights there are on each axle, as well as in total (Not all Police are authorised to weigh, so always ask to see their 'weight ticket' if you are asked to go with them to a weighbridge, and note your mileage - they can only make you go a certain distance out of your way, and have to cover all costs if you are under the limits ) If they find that you are exceeding the allowed weights, they may well take action against you (varying from allowing to to continue with a warning (5% overweight), making you unload the trailer (10% over) or giving you a ticket/summons to court).

So, you want to avoid all hassle (and remain legal!) - so you need a plate.

I would suggest that you need to ensure that the trailer (I'm assuming it was home-made at some point, otherwise there would be a plate on the A frame) is structually capable of doing the job - some are made from small box section metal with ply topping (caravan chasis?) and are light duty, others are made from substantial metal and capable of large weights.

I have seen pictures of yours, and am confident that it is structurally capable of what it is used for (as long as the welds aren't falling apart!), and *could* be plated for something in the region of 3000Kg - but that wouldn't help you unless you take a B+E entitlement for your license.

In real/practical terms I would take the empty trailer to a public weighbridge (Local council refuse/recycling centres are usually quite accomodating) or look on https://www.gov.uk/find-weighbridge for one near you.

Once you ascertain the unladen weight of the trailer, you can buy a plate from somewhere like Jonathan has linked to, and simply stamp it up for the appropriate weights (ie, ensure the UW is the figure weighed, then calculate the GVW which would put your total GTW at 3500Kg, then split that figure between the 2 axles...allowing a bit for uneven loading).

I would expect that if it were stamped with UW = 400Kg, Axle 1 (front axle) = 750Kg, Axle 2 = 750Kg, GVW = 1740Kg then not only would it be legal and easy for anyone who were to enquire about it, but it would easily allow for an 1100Kg elan on the back in 'real' use.

As and when you wish to sell the trailer on, anyone with a Class B licence will be able to use it, and anyone with a B+E (or higher) can choose to get it replated as appropriate.

Oh, and just for total peace of mind, I'd probably take the whole lot back to a weighbridge (with the trailer laden with the car), just to see what it actually comes in at - then you will have a better idea of how far up the trailer bed the car should be to equalise the weight distribution, have the appropriate 'nose weight' (vertical loading on the tow ball), and how much allowance you have for any 'extras' you want to put in the car, on the trailer or whatever in the future.

[Tuga2112]

thanks for the tips dave.

I have re checked my data.

the curb weight of the 4runner is 1700kg and the tow capacity according to online sourse is 3500lb (1587kg with some spare change) although i am yet to find a manufacturer backed claim (some places state 2200kg or 5000lb)
this gives me a smaller window of weight (400kg) for the trailer to tow the elan legally
im going to take it to the weightbridge sometime soon. and depending on the trailer weight, i may need to "add lightness" to it. in order make sure its 100% legal.

taking a test for a b+e licence is something that i will consider if it can be justified .
but from the research ive done. having that licence wont validate me driving the 4runner while towing more than 1580kg behind it. even tho im sure the car's engine and brakes wont struggle. Ive read multiple accoutns online of people using "surf" (i wonder if the low tow capacity is related to chassis design?)
the alternative would be to replace the vehicle with something else with higher tow capacity and take the b+e test... but i cant find annything else 4x4 that i trust at a price that is within "toys" budget

EDIT
i just noticed

First, you need to look at the VIN plate on your towing vehicle and see what it allows as a GTW.

that should be easy enough to check then i get home

[Tuga2112]

Checked vin plate of my 4runner.

There's some good news there.
The gtw is 4710kg
So there may be scope for me to justify the b+e licence test
With that in mind Im pretty confident I've been legal all along.
Unless the trailer weight more than 600kg

[lotusrepair]

Here is the USA we do not have to do all of those things. Getting a number plate is just like getting a car plate. No special license. It is really up to the owner to match the vehicle and trailer. I have had 3 trailers and many different trucks to pull them with. My current trailer is 9k lbs. The trailer weighs 2k so 7k left for carry weight.

I worry more about the brakes on what is towing the trailer. I had the trailer brakes fail on a mountain and it was a scary ride.

Chris

[Tuga2112]

Here is the USA we do not have to do all of those things. Getting a number plate is just like getting a car plate. No special license. It is really up to the owner to match the vehicle and trailer. I have had 3 trailers and many different trucks to pull them with. My current trailer is 9k lbs. The trailer weighs 2k so 7k left for carry weight.

I worry more about the brakes on what is towing the trailer. I had the trailer brakes fail on a mountain and it was a scary ride.

Chris

i understand that.
the brakes work (although they will need new shoes) in the UK the roads are generally decent quality and the country as a whole is pretty flat with exception of scotland, but no one cares about the barbarian lands past adrian's wall anyway
my problem is that im going to need to move some of my cars over a 300 mile trip in the near future. the more the miles traveled, the bigger the chanse of being pulled over so i want to be triple sure everything is legal instead of a finger in the air guess like ive done in the past.

so far thanks for Jonathan and Dave's help looks like im in a pretty good position, just need to get a plaque and weight the trailer. depending on trailer weight, i may need to add a Chapman conversion kit to it.

[Rambo]

in the UK the roads are generally decent quality

You are joking of course

no one cares about the barbarian lands past adrian's wall anyway

Who is adrian ?

[Tuga2112]

Who is adrian ?

my most humble apologies for missing the silent "H" in Hadrian's wall... i guess the place is soo far that silent consonants dont reach us here

not going to enter a debate about the roads condition.
in order to stay in topic. the 4runner brakes are pretty good, they lock easily when braking hard (unlike some other car we are familiar with)
also when im towing in the motorway
1 - i never get to 60mph .
2 - the gap i leave between me and the vehicle in front is usually at least the lenght of a semi which gives me some extra time/space to safely slow down or stop
3 - england is not very hilly (yes, being specific here in order to not allow men in skirts to go off topic about their homeland)
4 - im familiar with the use of the engine to brake when moving downhill.

however, if anyone has any tips on towing i am listening, my experience is very limited and anything that decreases the chanse of an accident is worth knowing about.

[GeoffSmith]

…yes, being specific here in order to not allow men in skirts to go off topic about their homeland…

You do know that Rambo is not a Scotsman scotsman Skortsman?
[Damn these obscenity filters]

[Tuga2112]

…yes, being specific here in order to not allow men in skirts to go off topic about their homeland…

You do know that Rambo is not a **skirt wearing porridge-nosher** **skirt wearing porridge-nosher** Skortsman?
[Damn these obscenity filters]

All I know is that he loves banter and lives in Scotland. Obviously assumptions had to be made for the humour effect.
I was expecting a reply in kind words telling me to sod off by now, so that we can them go back to the topic.

[Simon_P]

Tuga,

If your trailer is old enough you don't need a plate. If you make one it would be like printing your own driving license.

It isn't a goods vehicle, and you don't need a ministry plate or the annual MOT that goes with it. Assuming it weighs less than a ton

What you do need to do is ensure that you comply with the weigh restrictions, for your vehicle and licence. You could try lifting it up or for accuracy a couple of bathroom scales and some blocks, weigh it and write the weight on with a paint pen by the hitch.

Make sure it is properly loaded (max hitch weight) in a good state of repair and properly lit.

As for your chances of getting stopped... Next to zero, there are regularly un lit trailers doing 80 +in the fast lane on the M25 at night, and no sign of any police.... But God help you if you go through a speed trap you will get taxed for exceeding the appropriate speed limit.

Also remember to tape over your reg plate of the car on the trailer.

Here is the USA we do not have to do all of those things. Getting a number plate is just like getting a car plate.

We don't have to do them either, but we have the EU giving us legislation that we don't really understand. Our towing vehicles are also much smaller so the balance is more critical, and people try to tow big things with small things with inevitable consequences. So the EU restricted the Driving licence

I think we are referring to the manufacturers plate that is on all new trailers. The Government did introduce some legislation to make getting a number plate difficult because people were having them made to avoid speeding camera tax, but that is bypassed by buying "Show plates" to the correct spec. from eBay

Who is adrian ?

The better know cousin of Asinine who ad anuver go a few years later

[lotusrepair]

Make sure the trailer you are getting or already have has at least one side of removable fenders. Low cars can't open doors against the fenders. Not good when you drive the car onto the trailer. Make sure the car on the trailer will not hit the fenders.


Towing basics....
Place the car/load on the trailer to balance both vehicles. What I mean is that if you move too much weight to the back of the trailer a panic stop will push the trailer hitch up and take pressure off of the rear wheels. This will cause longer stopping and in bad cases the rear of the tow car will go sideways causing a jack knife event. I once saw a small car towing another small car. Bad breaking and they ending up one on top of the other from the pivot of the hitch. Move the load too far forward and you put too much load on you hitch. It is balance and you may have to drive a little to know where the sweet spot is.

Use only good straps. No cheap ones. Everything is held on with them. Many different styles of straps out there. I carry 3 types.

Know where you are anchoring the car down to the trailer. The car on the trailer will move up and down on the suspension as you drive. Leave some movement, but not much. Tighten down too much an the suspension might twist. If you are going to use a cross pattern on the straps then make sure what you are anchoring onto. Example of bad... I hauled a Europa across the USA, 30 hr drive. I anchored to the wheel suspension in the rear. Checking the straps at stops I found them slightly loose. I tightened them each time. At home I found that I had bent the shocks. Pulling in made the car go up as the suspension pulled under the car. If you are strapping the wheels down then snug them up.

If you have electric brakes... if hyd trailer brakes then skip
Brake controllers... There are cheap ones that just turn on when you push your break pedal. Some sense the deceleration and apply only what is needed. Make sure of what you are getting. You want the trailer to slow the car towing down to a stop when only the manual brake switch on the unit is applied while testing. Adjust the brake controller to do just this. Fine tune as needed. The trailer brakes should not lock up when you apply the car brakes.
After the trailer has sat for a month the trailer wheels will tent to lock up as you try and use them. The rust on the drums gets worn off quickly but makes you try and reset the brake adjustments.

Driving with a trailer. Know how wide the trailer is compared to the tow car. The trailer is normally wider than the car. No sharp turns with the trailer. Backing up is the hardest for most people. If you have hyd brakes then when you try and back up you are applying the brakes. Insert something to try and stop the slide from moving when you have to back up this type.

Do you have a tow/haul feature on your transmission? Do not use overdrive except on level roads with constant speed. Manually down shift if needed when you have a heavy load. My truck has a tow/haul function. It changes the shift points and uses the engine as a brake when I decelerate. Some cars have a sway control for towing built into the computer.

I have been towing a car trailer for my cars, dad's and friends cars for over30 years. I haul large cars (28 Rolls) all the way down to Lotus.
More questions?
Chris

[Tuga2112]

Simon, Thanks for the information.

If your trailer is old enough you don't need a plate. If you make one it would be like printing your own driving license.

i suspected this, however. i think a "no plate" situation can raise a lot more trouble with untrained police than a plate with correct information. i feel tempted to pop in the local police station to enquire. but my previous experience with police stations is that no one knows anything and no one is willing to investigate, not to mention im cynical enough to believe before i walk out of there the radio signal is given to keep an eye out for anyone doing what im enquiring about just for the sake of filing out paperwork easily.

Make sure it is properly loaded (max hitch weight) in a good state of repair and properly lit.

my car does not have a definition of max hitch weight. according to this reliable source the GTW can be used to calculate Max hitch weight (note that this is a variable figure depending on the load on the vehicle itself)
this leads back to the 4700kg figure previously mentioned. this is automatically cut town to 3500kg because i have a B1 licence and not a B+E licence
the distribution of weight in my specific scenario woudl be
1700kg car + 100kg myself
1100kg elan + presently unknown value for the trailer weight.
give or take a bit of load. the known weight so far is 2900kg. plus trailer reason why, i must check the trailer weight ASAP

As for your chances of getting stopped... Next to zero, there are regularly un lit trailers doing 80 +in the fast lane on the M25 at night, and no sign of any police.... But God help you if you go through a speed trap you will get taxed for exceeding the appropriate speed limit.

when im towing. i never exceed the 60mph on the motorway. i believe the legislation states that anyone with a trailer must drive 10mpg less than the national speed limit in single/double carriageways and motorways. but can drive at 30 in urban areas.
the bottom line is that i tend to stick to 55mph mostly because i dont feel confident to go any faster and the whole experience is new to me
i have a standard light board at the rear. its not ideal as it doesnt cover the full lenght of the trailer (180cm instead of 200/210cm) i may need to canibalise the bar and fully incorporate it into the trailer frame. that is another thing i need to double check

Also remember to tape over your reg plate of the car on the trailer.

i was not aware that was a requirement, Thanks for letting me know.

Chris
thanks for the tips.

Make sure the trailer you are getting or already have has at least one side of removable fenders....

the car sits on the trailer higher than the fenders. its an awkard design, practical for a flatbed, a bit too high for a car transporter. but functional none the less

Place the car/load on the trailer to balance both vehicles.

i have done extencive research into that topic.
most of the information i have seen relates to trailers with either a single axle, or where both axles are very close apart.
the design of this trailer has 2 axles with very large wheels, spacing them a lot further apart than most trailers out there, in my previous experience i have concluded that the elan weight distributioun on my trailer fits in very nicely when the engine area is a little further ahead than the front axle. just enough to see the 4x4 suspension give in a bit, but not anywhere near a full load travel

Use only good straps. No cheap ones. Everything is held on with them. Many different styles of straps out there. I carry 3 types.

i only have 1 type of straps. 4 units of them with 4 "wheel adaptor" thingies.
each strap rated 5tons. and long enough to cover the whole side of the car.
i always use 1 strap per wheel, and strap only aroudn the tyres.
similar to this but not exactly in the same angles, and i tend to wrap around the tyres closer to the centre

Know where you are anchoring the car down to the trailer.

im not sure what you mean?

Know how wide the trailer is compared to the tow car. The trailer is normally wider than the car. No sharp turns with the trailer. Backing up is the hardest for most people. If you have hyd brakes then when you try and back up you are applying the brakes. Insert something to try and stop the slide from moving when you have to back up this type.

trailer is considerably wider than car.
brakes are cable driven
brakes only activate on relatively hard braking, the spring in the mechanism is very strong.
brakes have never acivated when reversing in the past. the little plate for that is present. but never had the need to use it, (worth mentioning the trailer has been used historically to carry stuff far heavier than a car, i got it from a farm, with farm grade tyres. i believe it was originally used to transport large amounts of hay)
im familiar with the dificulties of reversing with a trailer.. the biggest problems i have is visibility, and the helpers "comands" where you never know if "left" means 1- "steer car to left" 2- "shift trailer to left while keeping same direction" 3- steer trailer to left" which to me as the person driving means 3 very different actions.

Do you have a tow/haul feature on your transmission?

Manual tranmission, with option to 4wd and 4wd on high torque
problem being. i must use 2wd always, because both 4wd options lock all diffs by default. so i cant use them unless im offroading

More questions?

problem with that statement is that i dont know enough to know what else i should ask about. so. im askign for any tips that may not be obvious from people with a lot of experience.
I Have used trailers of different designs in the past. probably in a total sum of more than 10 and less than 20 trips
i understand the basics enough that i havent caused any accidents but i believe theres more to know about towing than my previous experience has taught me, so im welcoming any more knowledge.

[Simon_P]

my car does not have a definition of max hitch weight

I'm meaning the vertical load on the tow bar it will have a maximum unless its really old. The amount of weigh affects stability.

Simon_P wrote:
Also remember to tape over your reg plate of the car on the trailer.

i was not aware that was a requirement, Thanks for letting me know.

I don't think it is a requirement but cameras will pick up the reg number so you may get a letter if it is not taxed and you will pay at tolls.

[MPx]

Joao, I've got a car trailer and a plant trailer and tow fairly regularly. Looks like you always take a sensible steady approach and that's all that's needed really for minimising risks.

One concern - given that it was a farm trailer, the hitch would have been higher than a normal road trailer so the hitch height wouldn't match up to the ball height on the car? Have you made some kind of adjustment to sort this? If you are just forcing it on by tilting the trailer slightly this would have the effect of negative nose weight and make towing very unstable.

When loading you should always aim to have some positive nose weight but not too much. The design limit might be around 100kg but that is a bit much and I reckon about half of that gives a nice balance. You'll know if you've got it wrong as it will affect the steering and it will jerk against the ball over bumps. The closer you get it to the sweet spot the smoother the ride.

You have the correct straps for carrying a car. Always use all four. Tighten them very tight so that the tyres are just starting to deform. Once on the move stop after 10 to 15 miles and check the straps again. You will often find that at least one has gone loose particularly if the straps have become wet (rain etc). Also get into the habit of checking the straps on every stop for fuel or whatever. Worth noting that those wheel straps will mark a 16" S2 wheel because its such a bulbous design and the strap stretcher rubs on the spokes - the 15" SE should be OK though.

You'll have found that trailers will cut in a little on corners. Get into the habit of getting close to the centre line on left bends and right by the curb for right handers. Basically take as wide a line as is practical and safe.

Reversing is a bit of an art. Worth practicing with an empty trailer to become competent and confident. But even now after doing it for years it can take me 2 or even 3 goes to reverse through a narrow gate 90 degrees to the road. Satisfying to get it right in one of course!

Oh and speed limits are 50 on normal roads and 60 on dual carriageways and motorways.

Good luck! Mike

[dapinky]

50Kg nose weight is pretty ideal - if you dont have a 'proper' way of measuring it, I find that if I can lift the hitch on and off the ball with one hand and 'half a grunt', it's about right. If you need to wind it up on the jockey wheel, it's too nose heavy.

Reversing is easier with a longer 'A' frame and trailer, but you can't beat having a decent view and a banksman who knows what they're saying.

[Saltire]