Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

[Tuga2112]

Some progress has been made regarding the alternator

[RonR]

Hi Joao,

The sandwich of metal plates contain the rectifier diodes, they're heavy duty types and although they get hot they seldom fail.
Once I'd cleaned everything I checked mine with the diode tester function on a multimeter.
Just checked my phone + camera. I'm afraid there were no photos of the dismantling of the alternator, and I can't say I remember exactly how I removed that bearing - perhaps Simon will be along soon....

[Tuga2112]

i have figured out how to get the bearings out without any problem.

the rectifier diode is definitely faulty, as the resistance across one of the connections is considerably higher than the other 2.

I contacted a parts supplier who didnt have anything in the parts cross reference for the elan's alternator. however after a bunch of picture exchanges with measurements they seem confident that they found a suitable replacement.
when i get that situation resolved i will relay the findings. But theres a chance that going forward we have another replacement part cross reference added to the knowledge base.

[Tuga2112]

[abmunro]

I had a replacement rear window sewn into my Alpha Spider by KISH TRIM in wearside

Did real good job

[Tuga2112]

after posting the video for the alternator being rebuild. i have spent the afternoon re-installing the alternator.

now on iddle the voltage meter is reading 16v which seems a bit high.
so. im going to add another thread on the electrical section to get some input from the certified sparky-es before starting the car again.

no video of installing the alternator will be released. because i tried to film. but clearances are so narrow that its practically impossible to get a camera to point at what you are doing.
depending on the conclusions about the 16v i may be refitting the subframe (and doing a video on that topic) or possibly removing the hood.

[chrism]

Aw, I feel for you...that's bad luck Tuga .

If it's any consolation I felt that your vid was really informative and certainly gives me confidence to have a go (assuming the recon parts are still available...)

Imo it can only be the voltage reg at fault? In your place I think I'd put the old one back in and give it a whirl.

The job was certainly worth it to renew the bearings and brushes, clean it out and 'sort' that overheated diode bridge.

Perhaps get another voltage reg to keep as spare if that was the fault. (What would be the odds of getting two bad ones in a row?)

[378S2]

If it is any use to you, here's my 'normal' at idle.

[Tuga2112]

so, the alternator situation is partially resolved.

atually, its resolved as far as the car being on the road. but as far as refurbishment i have all the parts, i just need the motivation to get to complete that project.
i may make the refurbishment job a small project on its own because thise one has escalate to the extent that no one else has documented previously.

the replacement stator seems to be a push fit, and im confident it will assemble fine. if its going to run in the car with 14v thats a whole different story, but i have one other hint from a memebr in a different thread which hopefully will be the missing link to getting this completely reburbished.


but now, on to other problems.

one of the back lights of the instrument panel stopped working. strangely around the same time the tacho stopped reading.... but even more strangely the tacho sometimes decides to read. so im not sure if there is a bad conenction somewheere, but my suspision is that the sender unit broke with all the alternator shenanigans

ive now replaced the bulb with an LED which has the same brighness the next thing is figuring out what has happened to the tacho

[Tuga2112]

the next thing is figuring out what has happened to the tacho

first point of exclusion was to swap the ignition coil module, since i have the original one which was working when replaced, and after swapping the "new" one with the old working one, the tacho keeps reading nothing.
the next thing im guessing is to check for continuity of the signal wire that goes from the back of the instrument panel (white/slate) to the ignition coils module.(brown)

if this doesnt demonstrate any flaws it could be a big issue to take the guts out of the instrument panel to figure out why the needle doesnt move at all.

wish me luck

EDIT

continuity checked and there is no problem in the wiring.
it seems the issue is at the instrument panel side...

[Tuga2112]

tacho (and by coincidence, both oil pressure light AND alternator light) issues all diagnosed.

[Tuga2112]

hard to believe i have not posted anything about progrss since february... i have been rather busy with a different project lately, however there was some updates regarding the tacho.... which was fixed using Conductive Copper Foil Tape Self Adhesive

the roof glass has been replaced. at a cost that i recall being close to 200 quid. but strangely has been wiped of my memory in the meanwhile

well.. in the meanwhile i also found out that my mental and phisical capabilities have been slowly decreasing over a long period due to severe sleep apnoea.... (my AHI at 74 is aparently an extremely high figure) however this will hopefuly soon be addressed... assuming the NHS finds time for me.

at far as more progress on this small project...
a year ago when i removed the fuel tank in order to do some welding. i actually found myself with a broken fuel pump... back then i just swapped parts with the blue car and left the issue of replacing the pump for another day... well that day was today. and im pleased to inform "whom it may consern" that i have replaced the 30 year old pump with a brand new one... for £20 whole pounds (the good ones with the queen's head on them)

i bought a standard fuel pump instead of the SJs "kit" (priced 70+vat+post) and had to make some minor adjustments in order to install it, but everything is running as normal.

i have found a place that will re-silver my passenger side mirror, and in the meanwhile, canibalized the blue car's mirror in order to have the yellow one with full rear visibility.

more videos have been posted on youtube and so forth, but over the past 3 months a fair amount of progress was not achieved due to personal live taking a precedence.

currently on the final dash of work to get as many things finished before CC event. im looking forward to seeing others there and want to bring the car in the best condition i can.

[muley]

...and we're looking forward to meeting you

Have a safe journey

[Tuga2112]

as one would expect, Sod's law had to come pay me a visit.

today after doing a check and refresh on the front brakes where 3 of 4 sliders were seized, (now free) i put all the hood stowage plastics back and started the car..... to find it unable to hold idle and dying...

although i just changed the fuel pump, i am rather certain fuel starvation is not the issue with the system.

the reason is because if i start the car and keep intermitently opening the throtle and closing it, i can keep the engine running as well as bring it up to 4k revs.

i have no CEL codes.
and after a whole afternoon of faffinf about i now also have the IAC valve fasteners rounded and i know that the car can hold a steady idle speed if i disconnect the MAP sensor and start the engine with a litltle open throthle while cranking (when it idles in this setup is very clear that is overfuelling.. not to mention the CEL being on)

if anyone has any suggestions about clearing access to the IAC to get those annoying roudned bolts out im all hears.
equally, if anyone has any ideas of what may be the issue, im open to suggestions,

my plan for tomoorwo after work under the assumption that i dont get any advice in the meanwhile, is to go back to the old fuel pump just to be 100% sure that aint the issue (even tho i already ran the car for about 5 minutes with the new pump and everything was ok.)

[RonR]

I had a similar problem trying to get my old IAC out, and that was with the plenum OUT of the car!
Ended up sawing slots into the screws, dousing in PlusGas and heating.
My replacement screws are star drive, so hopefully the next person to try to remove them will have better luck!

I got a replacement from Rock Auto a few years ago as they were £6 then, but royally b*ggered it up trying to turn the socket through 120 degrees to suit the Elan.

[Tuga2112]

I had a similar problem trying to get my old IAC out, and that was with the plenum OUT of the car!
Ended up sawing slots into the screws, dousing in PlusGas and heating.
My replacement screws are star drive, so hopefully the next person to try to remove them will have better luck!

I got a replacement from Rock Auto a few years ago as they were £6 then, but royally b*ggered it up trying to turn the socket through 120 degrees to suit the Elan.

ive removed the plenum off the car when i was doing the head gasket.... its a bitch to do, but i suspect today it would be a couple of hours work instead of 2 days faffing about...

i think im going to try unplugging the TPS just to check what that can do. but i certainly know that unplugging the MAP does make a differnece. althought i am not very confident it will show any results

[Tuga2112]

so... its Sunday and i didint make it to CC (which im completely gutted about.

and the Elan is still not running. so im going to try and describe the problem better and all the things i have done so far in attempt to diagnose it.

the issue is that when i start the car, it cranks fine. but doesnt start... unless i open the throtle and close it repeatedly. which seems to be the only way to keep it running althouhg without doing it, the car does get some explosions... just not enough or regularly enough to actually run the car

i have tried to unplug multiple sensors to see if there was any difference.
MAT - no change
TPS - car wont start at all
MAP - needs throtle to start, but after that it can idle ok at 1200 and go up to 3700 rpm
(also trie MAP installed with induced leak - exact same behaviour as when its not plugged)
IAC valve - no change

other things i have tried include
unplugging Injectors 1 by 1 (with MAP unplugged) - and each had the expected behaviour or changing the tone and shaking the engine a bit


i have swapped the MAP with a known working map from the NA and confirmed that the MAP sensor is working fine.. in fact, the NA starts and runs just fine using the SE sensor.

after that i decided the swap the IAC valve (under the asusmption that it was stuck close) which lead me to rounding its screws... and escalated to a intake plenum reemoval... after that i replaced it with a new unit that was installed 180 degrees out of alignment because the electrical connectors... anyway. new IAC valve and issue persists

i am convinced that there is enough fuel going in the chamber, because when i do the trick with the throthle and rev it up. ther's liquid coming out the back and that smell of not completely burned fuel

I am now under the impression that there is a possibility the issue is ignition timing... this could lead to a CAS replacement or timing belt... i am unsure how to decide which one to work on first. as the timing belt needs doing (was last done 5 year ago) but at the same time. the CAS is a easier swap with another car.

I Have borrowed an elanscan and got it working to read from the car without any issues. althought due to my ignorance. the data i am seeing doesnt help much.

although in the begining of writing this i was clueless... as i am typing all this report a few ideas of things to try came up.

i may be able to confirm the CAS reading accuracy, by rotating the engine by hand while looking for the reading on elanscan (assume there is one )
alternatively swap it with another car just to be 100% sure its working, it depends on how much effort that requires.

i was thinkign or letting the car run in diagnostics mode... but when i do that, it doesnt idle (i am unable to check for base timing)

as usual, when im strugling with issues, suggestions are welcome.

[dapinky]

Ah, I have a thought, now that I've read this post, which hadn't occurred to me previously.....

....I knew that when we talked you had swapped things over to check them, BUT until I read this post, I wasn't aware that you had taken the MAP sensor from the green car - I assumed that it had come from the blue one!

Bearing in mind that the yellow (and Blue) ones are both turbos, but the green one is an NA......

.... is the MAP sensor the same?

I can only see one part listed in the parts book, BUT my limited knowledge of these things tells me that there are loads of sensors which look the same, but don't read the same values.

Clearly, a NA car only needs to read pressures up to 1 Bar (or close enough to that), whilst a Turbo needs to read pressure up to 2 Bar (atmospheric + boost), and I know that when some people have fitted a bigger turbo charger to increase the boost, one of the modifications was to fit a 3-Bar MAP sensor......

..... so, I don't know how this helps us, (or even if it does at all), but it is a thought which came to me.

Logically, if the sensor from the SE works on the NA, then it suggests the sensor is okay (although it may not get an accurate reading as it may be sensing 50% of what it should????) - or is that the problem, it reads wrong and sees a need to compensate???

Likewise, I would expect the NA sensor to work on the SE, but again, perhaps with different values going to the ECU.

I'm not sure it will help, but my suggestion is to try swapping the sensors from a Turbo car to see if that helps?????

[RonR]

so... its Sunday and i didint make it to CC (which im completely gutted about.

I Have borrowed an elanscan and got it working to read from the car without any issues. althought due to my ignorance. the data i am seeing doesnt help much.

Hi Joao, as an aside - Could you tell me if you were using Windows 10 or 11 to run Elanscan? On Saturday I tried 2 different laptops (Win 10 + 11), 2 different FTDI drivers, 2 versions of Elanscan (V9 + V10-Beta), 2 cables and Pinky's Bluetooth sender, on 2 different cars, but I couldn't get a reliable data feed. Dave suggested that maybe one of the myriad updates to Windows may have broken the functionality. Since then I've tried compatibility mode for Windows XP, 7 and 8 with the same result, and found that running Windows7 in a Hyper-V VM won't work as there's no USB passthrough. If I had any hair left I'd be pulling it out....

[Tuga2112]

I assumed that it had come from the blue one!

no, you did not assume, that is what i mentioned over the phone, as a short quick way to explain why it was ruled out,

i did use the blue map sensor first, and then put the NA sensor in, and finally used the yellow sensor in the NA to confirm it was working (dont want to risk starting the blue car before changing the belt)
i just tried to keep all that confusion out of the previous message... in a not particularly clear way.

.... is the MAP sensor the same?

interestingly enough... the blue and green sensors have GM engraved at the back.. but the one that came out of the yellow has different markings. but the enclosure is the same plastic shape and quality, i simpy assumed they were different batches of the same part, and as you mentioned, same part number in the manual.

so, yes i am pretty sure the MAP is not the issue, i do believe the engine needs to behave differently based on the same reading from the map sensor since the NA has higher compression, however, it makes sense to adjust that in the ECU software and use the same part, since you must modify the ECU regarless, and scale economy probably justifies using a SE 2bar sensor in the NA for both cost and simplicity of design.

its also worth re-iterating that with the original MAP installed but induced vacum leak on that line, i did get the same behaviour as if it wasnt connected.

so... its Sunday and i didint make it to CC (which im completely gutted about.

I Have borrowed an elanscan and got it working to read from the car without any issues. althought due to my ignorance. the data i am seeing doesnt help much.

Hi Joao, as an aside - Could you tell me if you were using Windows 10 or 11 to run Elanscan? On Saturday I tried 2 different laptops (Win 10 + 11), 2 different FTDI drivers, 2 versions of Elanscan (V9 + V10-Beta), 2 cables ....

windows 10 home
version 22H2
elanscan 10 beta 10.12.72
i dont know the FTDI driver, i got it from pinky's website https://d4pinky.wixsite.com/m100-documents/elanscan-etc
i did not follow the instructions exactly, as i installed the ftdi drivers first ans then plugged the cable (or vice versa, whichever the oposite of the instructions)

i do not know the source of this cable, it certainly looks professionally made, but that aint too dificult to achieve and i would expect Geoff's to be of this standard

there is a possibilty that i am not getting reliable data... but the TPS graph as well was a few others look coherent to me (which on the flip side doesnt help the diagnosis...)