Error Codes 22 + 33, High Idle and Running Rich

[roj]

Already replaced the MAP sensor. One of the first things to have been changed.

[Tuga2112]

i just saw your video.

that location looks surprisingly close to the IAC valve.

[roj]

IAC valve has been changed. It's definitely coming from the EGR valve. Whilst the smoke machine was running, I manually pulled the diaphram up and more smoke came out and the pitch of the smoke machine changed as pressure was released from the system. I'll have another crack at it lunchtime.

I think I'm trying to establish here is whether there should be anything at all coming from that EGR valve regardless of it being open or closed. YouTube videos related to EGR all seem to point to bad running, incosistent idle, etc. I've got a really high idle (2000 - 2500) and it starts fine.

I think whipping that valve off may not be a bad exercise just in case it's all coked up (if it's anything like the throttle body was).

I also have waiting in the wings a new CTS sensor. I've held off for now as ElanScan shows around 30 degrees on start up so was holding off. I may now fit as what the hell, I can tick it off the list.

Tuga, I'd be more than happy to let you borrow the smoke machine once I've sorted my problem out (or established no more air leaks). We'd just need to work out postal costs.

[Tuga2112]

im expecting a smoke machine delivered today.

i can plug it to my yellow car and tell you if theres any smoke from the EGR/ my car is running fine engine wise (cant say the same about the power steering... or that wheel noise that wasnt a wheel bearing...)

ill tell you if i got any smoke

[roj]

Excellent. Hope you find your leak. For the cost of a smoke machine, it could have been an hour of labour at a garage. That's what I tell myself. Still not fixed though.

I look forward to hear on your results and indeed, if anything comes out of your EGR valave. Will sit tight for now and see what you come back with.

[Tuga2112]

nothing delivered yet... seems like ill be waiting another day for the machine... did yours came with liquid ? or do i need to order that separately ??

[roj]

No liquid. I've used Johnsons baby oil (the one with the pink cap). Stick no more than 10ml in I think. The other think I did was get hold of a cheap 12V car battery to power it. Leads not long enough to reach the battery in the Elan.

[Tuga2112]

[Tuga2112]

I noticed after posting that I never opened the throttle so very little air would get to the rest of the system

Tried again with open throttle and I also have a small leak there

[roj]

Yey! The smoker turned up then. Can I just confirm, you say,

‘Tried again with open throttle and I also have a small leak there’

You have smoke coming out of the EGR valve as well. Correct?

If you do, it’s either:

1. Air is meant to come out of the valve ( I think the valve is closed at this point with the engine not running as there is no vacuum)

2. Pure coincidence and both our valves are faulty.

If it’s number 2, at least you may have found your undiscoverable vacuum leak.

[Tuga2112]

Yey! The smoker turned up then. Can I just confirm, you say,

‘Tried again with open throttle and I also have a small leak there’

You have smoke coming out of the EGR valve as well. Correct?

If you do, it’s either:

1. Air is meant to come out of the valve ( I think the valve is closed at this point with the engine not running as there is no vacuum)

2. Pure coincidence and both our valves are faulty.

If it’s number 2, at least you may have found your undiscoverable vacuum leak.

well.
the misterious vacum leak is on the NA (green car) that also has a leak at the EGR (or that area) and its considerably bigger than the one on the SE (yellow)
the NA also has a leak at the intake hose, which should be inconsequential. and theres a bit of smoke coming out of the EGR solenoid (i think its a solneoid... need to double check)

basically. i am extremely pleased with this tool. and i will be making good use of it

[roj]

I think I may whip this valve off then and have a look. Lots of vids on YouTube show people cleaning their valves up (other manufacturers, not Lotus). Surely, it can only help matters. Maybe a coked up valve is blocking the channel up and therefore any air is being forced out of the valve.

[Tuga2112]

either way. i think both of us will be replacing EGR gaskets very soon.

[roj]

Right! Mine's off!

And yes, absolutely caked, especially the channel leading into the manifold after the EGR valve.

Diaphram appears to be working fine. However, I think.....

1. The valve doesn't close completely as the carbon at the close point prevents a seal.
2. The carbon build up on the main central shaft gums things up also preventing a seal.
3. I think there's a rubber seal that surrounds the central shaft as it passes into the valve body. This may have perished and is where I think we have air escaping (or should I say exhaust gases). Hence poorer performance and creates a stink.

This may not solve my high idle but it's another tick in the box. Will have a look at cleaning this thing up along with pipework.

Looking forward to seeing what you've got Tuga!

See attached videos of inspection of valve and also pipework and channel.

https://youtu.be/fxgEuB9MKx0?si=9dqbGRBjv3l1fDoz

https://youtu.be/NmSmc90d-ew?si=HOYGf30pI52vEPvX

https://youtu.be/qkKnwx5nlT0?si=zYT3xztmDC1MFgC0

[Tuga2112]

glad to see your making progress.

im not planning on tackling this right now. the engine is running fine, right now, my problems are more of a "drivetrain" side of things...

[roj]

UPDATE - 24th July

1. EGR valve all cleaned up as best as possible and pipework/channels upstream and downstream of valve have been cleaned. Refitted along with new gasket. Diaphragm operates as it should and holds pressure.

2. Throttle body refitted along with new downward pipe to IAC valve. Right hand side vacuum pipe outlet (used on catalytic cars) now plugged off. Mine had a missing bung.

3. Fitted new MAT sensor as mine was absolutely caked in gunk.

4. All pipework reconnected along with any wiring.

5. Performed another smoke test. Only place I can see it escaping is the EGR valve. I think this is down to the central seal that the main rod passes through. Not much I can do there as EGR valves are nowhere to be found.

6. Battery was flat so charged up. This will of course have reset the ECU.

7. After battery had charged, tried the old trick of turning ignition on, rotating the throttle butterfly 5 times by hand, turning the ignition off and removing the key. Then started the car several minutes later.

THE RESULT.

She stills idles high and was expected. Went for a drive and revs came down as she warmed up. Drove absolutely sweet as anything. Revs were now down to 1500.

Got back home, turned the car off for a minute or two whilst I prepared the next step. Check base timing.

On trying to start, it took several seconds and she coughed and spluttered into life. She also sounded like it was popping from the exhaust (like a Subaru Impreza). Anyway, I carried on. Car up to temp, fans kicked in a couple of times, stuck the good old paper clip in to activate service mode and brought the revs up to 2000 rpm and let them drop down slowly. Looks like timing was around 10TDC. Adjusted and got it to around 16TDC (timing mark was jumping around a bit). Still idling high. Turned the idle screw in to the point of where I can’t go any further. Idle speed achieved is around 1100rpm. Disabled service mode and she sits there and idles around 1100. Doesn’t sound happy though. Maybe firing on 3 cylinders. Check out vid here:

https://youtu.be/ZnBrVo3skPk?si=w-QptqgFytTwF2hf

Tried to start the car later on when things had cooled down and it was easier to start. Still popping.

Any suggestions or guidance.

1. Will look at changing spark plugs. New ones went in last year but with poor running they may be fouled.

2. Is it worth winding the idle needle valve all the way out and removing to check condition. Could it be all gummed up and stopping me from winding it in further ?

Any help is most appreciated. Thank you.

[Tuga2112]

can you plug it to elanscan ?
the sound seems like its idle about right, or even slower than mine.

it could be that your probaly is the tacho needle misspositioned ?

[roj]

Will have a play tomorrow with Elan Scan. Don’t think the tachometer is playing up. It definitely doesn’t sound right running.

[roj]

So my issue of a high idling engine at 4000rpm continues. Not much has happened the past month due to other commitments. However, I've had a visit from an auto technician and I've had chance to play around today. So to sum up, after my visit from the auto technician, he concurs that the extra air being allowed into the engine is via the IAC valve. Everything else seems to check out. I'm on my 3rd IAC valve before you ask. The original, a cheap Lucas one and now the pricier one from SJ. Looking at Elan scan, on startup, the IAC valve does not move so it stays open at 80 steps. On switching off ignition, we can see the step count lower (the inlet closes) and then pullls back out to park at 80 steps. So the valve is getting a signal but something is not telling it to close up when running. You can lower the revs by putting a thumb over the inlet hole at the throttle body so that would indicate the excess air is via the IAC valve.

Before anyone suggest an air leak, I have smoke tested this engine so many times for vacuum leaks and I repeated the test again today to triple check. Only place smoke appears to come out is around the EGR valve.

My technician has suggested eith a dodgy ECU unit or the other thing to possibly test is taking the belt off the alternator to see if it's sending too much/too little power to sensors.

I went the path of least resistance and purchased an ECU/ECM. No change. I'm loathed to start taking the alternator belt off as that looks an immense job.

So today, I was able to swap out the Coolant Temperature sensor and thermostat. No change. I also tried other little tests like disconnecting the throttle cable to check it wasn't being held open, etc. No change.

However.... Whilst the car was running, I disconnected the MAP sensor pipe to the elbow joint on the left hand side of the plenum. The revs dropped (nearly stalled) and then a second or two later went back up to really high revs. I place the pipe back on, no change. Take the pipe off after a couple of seconds, the revs drop (down to 1000rpm). Revs go back up to stupidly high after two or three seconds. And so on and so forth. The MAP sensor was one of the first things I changed. I swapped it our for the original MAP sensor and it did exactly the same thing. The new sensor was purchased from SJ so I can only assume it's up to spec. Or could I have been unlucky and it's a duff sensor? Or is this a red herring and the fault lies elsewhere? I'm not pointing fingers or blame here to be clear. I just want to get this car fixed.......

I attach a video/link of this weirdness so anyone out there can see what I mean.

My next port of call is to hook up Elan Scan and repeat this test. Hopefully I shall then see if the IAC valve is closing or not with the revs dropping. Or is it because the pressure/amount of air is released by taking the MAP sensor pipe off.

Once again, any thoughts, comments or help is truly appreciated.

Cheers,

Rog.

https://youtu.be/qHWWxRIeX6A

[dapinky]

I had 3 thoughts as I was reading the post...... and you addressed them all with the new IAC valve, ECU and MAP sensor!!!!

So, I am now at a point of only having thoughts of going over where you have been.

3 IAC valves are unlikely to be dodgy, likewise a new ECU....... however, the MAP sensor is available in different 2flavours" depending on the boost levels seen at the engine. As the Elan turbo can boost to 0.92 bar, it uses a 2-bar sensor (1 bar air pressure and max 1 bar boost), whilst the NA uses a 1 bar sensor (and high boost engines use a 3-bar sensor to allow over 1 bar boost).

All 3 sensors look identical and have the same wiring, so may look right at first shout..... but will be imprinted with a GM part number which can be checked. I really don't know if a different 'range' would have any affect at all on the idle, but is one thing which is quick and easy to check.