Phantom project

[Jamie N]

VTEC,FTW!.

[ailwyn]

What about the supercharged Toyota VVTLi from the Exige S? Must be quite compact and light?

Same basic engine as the Celica which is FWD so get a gearbox from a smashed Celica.

[surfboardfiller]

Supercharged should be better for the track than Turbocharged. The Lotus Evolved Toyota engine puts out a huge amount of power for it's weight and a lot more than the Engine put out before Lotus got hold of it Like +100 bhp (off the top of my head). I think the gear box would be a Toyta (too as Lotus can't build them).
You could look for a crashed Exige or have a chat to the parts guy at Donny

[Doug]

When I saw the thread heading I did think of this car..

wow, that's close to Geoff's plate "F4RTER"

[Doug]

IMHO there's no engine worth doing cause don't forget you'd have to fit it to the tranny or somehow get another tranny to fit--this would mess up the axles and bring on the torque steer, etc, etc

it'll never happen if his car is an Elan

stroke it, bore it, build it, and force-feed it -- certainly you could get whatever HP numbers you want fron it if built right

[Dico]

And if you can't get traction with 210 bhp in a Quaife equipped car then what will you gain by having more power?
I need stickier tyres!

4 wheel drive , if you're going to do it, do it proper

[Paul.P]

4 wheel drive , if you're going to do it, do it proper

Not in an elan you won't, Costas looked at doing it !

[lotusgirlmarie]

as did I Not possible.




what about a Honda B16 or B17 from an Integra? Light and powerful and easy to force feed

[surfboardfiller]

IMHO there's no engine worth doing cause don't forget you'd have to fit it to the tranny or somehow get another tranny to fit--this would mess up the axles and bring on the torque steer, etc, etc

it'll never happen if his car is an Elan

stroke it, bore it, build it, and force-feed it -- certainly you could get whatever HP numbers you want fron it if built right

I don't see why anyone (in their right mind) would try and fit a Toyota power plant to the Isuzu transmission. Use the Toyota one it came with and if you can't get it to fit then so be it. It was a good suggestion I agree with and said why.

I think it's the unique Lotus engineered suspention geometry and the fact that there are equil length drive shafts that stops the torque steer.

The big question is whether the engine can fit the raft.

Surly identifying a 'good' engine is the first step to achieving the goal. The next step is seeing which ones of those can fit the Raft. Obviously there is no point in fitting crap to the car.

The question raised was:
"Just need to confirm what engine I can fit in it."

My question is: Is this car for track or for road?

Cheers,

Phil

[GeoffSmith]

I think it's the unique Lotus engineered suspention geometry and the fact that there are equil length drive shafts that stops the torque steer.

Correct.

If you start altering the balance of the car by throwing away a load of weight in the front, I would imagine the handing is going to degrade and the "fastest point to point" claim will only hold on a straight road! Not really what the Elan is all about. Also, you will get even less traction without the extra weight of the engine so, apart from the engineering challenge, I can't see the point in trying to change the engine. Costas has demonstrated there is plenty of potential for overcoming the extra weight.

If nursey could hold off the medication for a while, perhaps DaveT could enlighten us as to the intended use.

PS How the hell did you know Doug?

[surfboardfiller]

If you start altering the balance of the car by throwing away a load of weight in the front, I would imagine the handing is going to degrade and the "fastest point to point" claim will only hold on a straight road! Not really what the Elan is all about. Also, you will get even less traction without the extra weight of the engine so, apart from the engineering challenge, I can't see the point in trying to change the engine.

Sorry Geoff, that makes no sense to me. You loose weight at the front and loose weight at the back - the car is balanced.
The car isn't brilliant at handling due to a heavy old engine. It handles well because the chassis holds and the suspension works. I can't see how a lighter car will handle worse!?? What you wrote goes against the very fabric of what Lotus is about?
Loose weight and you don't need so much traction to accelerate or corner. If you want more traction, then use the air flow to give down force. Loose the weight and gain performance.

Lighter better point to point!

Costas has demonstrated there is plenty of potential for overcoming the extra weight.

If nursey could hold off the medication for a while, perhaps DaveT could enlighten us as to the intended use.

PS How the hell did you know Doug?

[surfboardfiller]

4 wheel drive , if you're going to do it, do it proper

Not in an Elan you won't, Costas looked at doing it !

I read that Lotus fully intended to do a 4WD M100!?

[Paul.P]

4 wheel drive , if you're going to do it, do it proper

Not in an Elan you won't, Costas looked at doing it !

I read that Lotus fully intended to do a 4WD M100!?

Would be very surprised Phil, theve not exactly got a lot of experience in that field ?

[ailwyn]

Would be very surprised Phil, theve not exactly got a lot of experience in that field ?

Shame they never attempted a Front Wheel Drive

[Monty]

If you start altering the balance of the car by throwing away a load of weight in the front, I would imagine the handing is going to degrade and the "fastest point to point" claim will only hold on a straight road! Not really what the Elan is all about. Also, you will get even less traction without the extra weight of the engine so, apart from the engineering challenge, I can't see the point in trying to change the engine.

Sorry Geoff, that makes no sense to me. You loose weight at the front and loose weight at the back - the car is balanced.
The car isn't brilliant at handling due to a heavy old engine. It handles well because the chassis holds and the suspension works. I can't see how a lighter car will handle worse!?? What you wrote goes against the very fabric of what Lotus is about?
Loose weight and you don't need so much traction to accelerate or corner. If you want more traction, then use the air flow to give down force. Loose the weight and gain performance.

Lighter better point to point!

Costas has demonstrated there is plenty of potential for overcoming the extra weight.

If nursey could hold off the medication for a while, perhaps DaveT could enlighten us as to the intended use.

PS How the hell did you know Doug?

You have to remember it`s a front wheel drive, less weight at the front will make it more difficult to get the power down. But would imagine this could be solved by the suspension set up.

IMHO
Engine is up to the job
loss some weight
and concentrate on the suspension side of things, brakes, wheels and tyres.

Once the handling is up to the job then think about a turbo upgrade

[surfboardfiller]

You have to remember it's a front wheel drive, less weight at the front will make it more difficult to get the power down. But would imagine this could be solved by the suspension set up.

IMHO
Engine is up to the job
loss some weight
and concentrate on the suspension side of things, brakes, wheels and tyres.

Once the handling is up to the job then think about a turbo upgrade

I'm already on it, but it's not me who is changing the engine.
I'm keeping the heavy old lump and spending the money on adding lightness, stability, strength and power. If I had the money to change the engine I'd just buy an Exige instead.

Unless of course it was an NA in which case I'd just swap the motor for the SE I have sat in one of my garages.

[GeoffSmith]

The suspension was designed (very well) around the weight and weight distribution the car has. Start changing that and the characteristics will change; eventually, you will reach a point where you would need to alter the suspension etc. Although we've got a lot of expertise on LEC, nobody has anywhere near the experience or facilities that Lotus had to develop the Elan, so I don't think anyone can say where that point is.

FWD is inherently bad at getting power down because the front tends to lift (i.e. become lighter). RWD is far better because the rear tends to squat down (i.e become heavier). The force you've got between the wheels and the road, the more grip you've got and the more power you can get down.

[tweetdriver63]

4 wheel drive , if you're going to do it, do it proper

Not in an Elan you won't, Costas looked at doing it !

I read that Lotus fully intended to do a 4WD M100!?

Would be very surprised Phil, theve not exactly got a lot of experience in that field ?

No, but given there was an AWD impulse in '91, it seems logical that the partnership would have at least made them interested in the possibility.

[surfboardfiller]

The suspension was designed (very well) around the weight and weight distribution the car has. Start changing that and the characteristics will change; eventually, you will reach a point where you would need to alter the suspension etc. Although we've got a lot of expertise on LEC, nobody has anywhere near the experience or facilities that Lotus had to develop the Elan, so I don't think anyone can say where that point is.

FWD is inherently bad at getting power down because the front tends to lift (i.e. become lighter). RWD is far better because the rear tends to squat down (i.e become heavier). The force you've got between the wheels and the road, the more grip you've got and the more power you can get down.

To say 'changing the engine will change the balance of the car' is IMHO overly simplistic, but maybe that's because I'm a designer.

There is no problem that could not be solved in changing to an engine that fits to this car IMHO. To that I am confident.

I think it goes without saying that you are going to change the suspension set up in some way, if you are adding power and developing a racing /track car with the same engine or not.
You seem to imagine a problem and then say 'it can't be done'.
Suffice to say: If there is a problem then find a solution.

I like LEC it's full of enthusiasts but it isn't the only source of knowledge there is, there are a lot of good professional tuners and developers out there and to embark on a project of this scale, seriously, I would not expect to rely on fellow LEC members. I would expect to pay an expert for their time.

I understand the physics really well Geoff but RWD Better? I'd rather be in an M100 than an Excel!

As for 4WD/AWD I am sure they planned on it, the M100 was their first FWD so I would not dismiss it.

[GeoffSmith]

Phil,

The characteristics of the car will be altered and going to an ally block is going to make a huge difference - whether this is sufficient to adversely affect the handling, I think only Lotus can say. If it is a problem, then of course it can be solved by an expert, but whether you can persuade/afford Lotus is another matter.

RWD is inherently more able to put more power down to the road than FWD. Equal and opposite forces/turning moments and all that - viewing it from the offside, the wheels are applying the torque clockwise and the body is trying to turn anticlockwise so the downwards force due to the mass of the car is transferred to the rear wheels. QED.

I think you're right about 4WD though - there's more than a hint in 'the bible' and, as we've discovered, there is masses more power available from the engine. Lotus couldn't wind the wick up too much for the SE as they wouldn't have sufficient in hand to offset the additional transmission losses of a 4WD setup. It might be a good question to drop in conversation with MJK!

Geoff

PS what are you planning to use the fastcat for?