Anti-freeze

Alternator, waterpump, A/C, sensors, CAS, etc.

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Anti-freeze

Postby rip » Tue 08.04.2008, 09:42

There seems to be a lot of Head Gasket Failures among LEC members lately, mine being just about the most notorious :roll: . Coolant is a major part of this, so I have been doing some research.

Firstly, modern Anti-Freeze is not like the old stuff. It contains corrosion inhibitors. Make sure you use it in the summer too, and don't be stingy with it. 40-50% AF in your coolant is about right to keep your waterways clean (& make your pump/stat/rad last longer).

The old winter-only stuff was methanol based. This is the stuff which does not contain any corrosion inhibitors. If you can find any of this, avoid it.

For years the standard has been Ethylene Glycol. The 'standard stuff' is usually blue or green and contains inorganic silicate-based (MEG) corrosion inhibitors. This requires changing every 2 years because the inhibitors get used up.

Around the turn of the century, "Organic Acid Technology" (MEG with OAT) corrosion inhibitors became available. Anti-Freeze with this supposedly lasts for up to 5 years and runs cleaner than the standard MEG stuff. MEG with OAT anti-freeze is usually red or pink. OAT anti-freeze should only be used with Aluminium radiators because it reacts with copper & brass. In cases where this can be used, it runs cleaner the blue/green stuff.
Mixing the two shortens the life of the corrosion inhibitor.

There is no guarantee that all blue/green antifreeze has silicate corrosion inhibitors and all red/pink has OAT. Check carefully first.

If in doubt, use silicate at about 50% concentration, renewed at least every 2 years. Don't go too high with the concentration because water is better at carrying the heat away.
Don't assume that because it is not red then it is not organic. Check first.

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Postby Sy V » Tue 08.04.2008, 12:34

Oh, I can't get too excited about this, I was doing my daily read (down the site) saw this and though... why!

Then when I get to Geoff's HGF thread I find that you've referred to this thread.
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Re: Anti-freeze

Postby Sy V » Tue 08.04.2008, 13:55

rip wrote:... mine being just about the most notorious :roll:...


That'll be because you keep banging on about it; you have it in your avatar and in your signature, then.

:o - NOT. :roll: :wink:
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Postby Dico » Wed 09.04.2008, 08:10

....... back on topic (sort of)

Whats your thoughts on water wetter? John mentioned using it in another thread (and he generaly knows his stuff), but I read somwhere a while back that it had no benefits.
Should I start another thread? :-D

and whats all this about rippy having a head gasket failure?
If I'd paid what he had paid I'd bang on about it too!
:P
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Postby Dave Eds » Wed 09.04.2008, 08:15

Dico wrote:and whats all this about rippy having a head gasket failure?
:P


News to me :shock:

How come you always get the gossip first Dics? On that CB again :?
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Postby Dico » Wed 09.04.2008, 08:19

Trust me, its better he talks about antifreeze than his train set :smt031
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Postby Dave Eds » Wed 09.04.2008, 08:25

Dico wrote:Trust me, its better he talks about antifreeze than his train set :smt031


You've suffered both too eh :roll:

Worth keeping an eye out though :-D
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Postby dapinky » Wed 09.04.2008, 10:14

'HO', 'OO' or 'N' gauge????

HGF????

News to me!
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Postby rip » Wed 09.04.2008, 10:35

Water wetter: Just googled it. I think I understand what it does.

Compared to water, anti-freeze is actually a poor coolant. It's specific heat capacity is low, which means you need lots of it to transfer away the heat. AF is necessary for its corrosion protection & changing of freezing point.
Red Line claim that Water Wetter addresses this, making the coolant better at conducting heat away.
Our engines don't generally suffer cooling problems, but this may theoretically cool the combustion chambers more effectively, allowing the knock sensor to advance the timing slightly, but the engine will take longer to warm up.
In practice, it may not make any noticeable difference at all

The top result in the google search had some worrying comments about it covering the cooling system in slime. (from PC users, presumably overclockers who want to push their machines to their thermal limit.)
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Postby GeoffSmith » Sun 13.04.2008, 14:29

Sy V wrote:Oh, I can't get too excited about this....

I can! I've been wondering about water wetters or some time.:D

Water :
high specific heat capacity so good at getting heat away
low (comparatively) boiling point so cooling system need to be under pressure
high (comparatively) freezing point so useless unless you live in equatorial climes
high negative coefficient of thermal expansion so bad for radiators if it does freeze (I know, been there, done that :oops: )

Antifreeze usually including corrosion inhibitor:
reduces SHC - bad
increases boiling point - good
decreases freezing point - very good
decreases corrosion - good

Mixed inhibitors e.g. Aqua Clear PX
Claims to further reduce corrosion - good but necessary?

Suface tension reducers e.g. 'Redline Water Wetter'†
Claims to reduce water surface tension so better heat transfer at very high temperature - good



Redline claim temperatures reduced by 30°F ~ 19°C but their tests don't appear to back this up: A small block Chevvy with a 160°F thermostat running at 7200RPM for 3 hours! :shock: (don't see the relevance in the 'stat information as it should be wide open) show reduction from 228 to 220°F with 50/50 antifreeze and 220 to 208°F with pure water. Seems to me that the antifreeze has already raised the boiling point so you don't get vapour bubbles and the only significant benefit is if you're running pure water (when racing for better heat transfer). Maybe this stuff is needed in extremely hot climates or if you constantly drive at 130MPH but I'm not convinced for UK conditions.
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Postby Rambo » Mon 14.04.2008, 09:32

I sat next to RIP at the Sat. night Donington pub meal and there was absolutely no mention of the HGF failure. Nor of any "H", "G" or "F" gauge model railways. I'm feeling deprived :(
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Postby M100 TWO » Mon 14.04.2008, 09:37

IT also acts as a pump lubricant for the seals
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Postby chris.t » Mon 14.04.2008, 09:58

Just had a chat with my very experienced mechanic. He said that one of the worse thing you can do is let the car sit for long periods. This allows any sludge in the system to settle in to low points and will become solid after time. He says best thing is to use the car regularly and also drain down and replace coolant every year. He also blamed 95 ron fuel for making the car run hotter.

My car goes in for a new rad on wednesday and i asked if there was anything that could be done prior to flush the system thru. Hes getting me some chemical clean additive which i can add between then and now to try and remove some of the 17 year old crud. Says that i'll have to take it out for nice long run to flush it thru properly - oh what a hardship!

PS while i was chatting to him he was stripping down the engine of a very nice minter mgb V8 which strangely enough had been suffering from severe overheating problems.

edit/ sorry if my post is slightly off topic but i thought it was relevant as it was about the cooling system. Mods feel free to move it as you see fit.
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Postby rip » Mon 14.04.2008, 12:02

Rambo wrote:I sat next to RIP at the Sat. night Donington pub meal and there was absolutely no mention of the HGF failure. Nor of any "H", "G" or "F" gauge model railways. I'm feeling deprived :(

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Postby Dico » Mon 14.04.2008, 13:31

Hairyhead wrote:I sat next to RIP at the Sat. night Donington pub meal and there was absolutely no mention of the HGF failure. Nor of any "H", "G" or "F" gauge model railways. I'm feeling deprived :(


Don't worry Mark, me and Spudpants can fill you in, down to the last detail. :-)


Chris, let us know if you find a name for the coolant system flush, or if you know if one is available from Halfords etc. :-) :-)
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Postby chris.t » Mon 14.04.2008, 14:01

Dico wrote:Chris, let us know if you find a name for the coolant system flush, or if you know if one is available from Halfords etc. :-) :-)

Wynns Cooling system flush
Flush
Mines come in a tin and is called "Cooling system flush" but its the same stuff, does the same job. Don't know if its available in Halfrauds but any motor factor should do it.
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Postby Rambo » Mon 14.04.2008, 14:17

chris.t wrote:
Dico wrote:Chris, let us know if you find a name for the coolant system flush, or if you know if one is available from Halfords etc. :-) :-)

Wynns Cooling system flush
Flush
Mines come in a tin and is called "Cooling system flush" but its the same stuff, does the same job. Don't know if its available in Halfrauds but any motor factor should do it.


I've seen it there - a couple of quid dearer than Joe Bloggs motor factors under the nearest railway bridge but I guess that's why they're called Halfrauds ?
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Postby Dico » Mon 14.04.2008, 19:12

Cheers Chris. Job for the September lay up ;-)
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Postby GeoffSmith » Mon 14.04.2008, 19:20

I used the Radflush that's been sat on the garage shelf for a while. Must be a long time 'cause you don't appear to be able to buy it any more! :oops:
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Postby Dave Eds » Mon 14.04.2008, 19:27

GeoffSmith wrote:I used the Radflush that's been sat on the garage shelf for a while. Must be a long time 'cause you don't appear to be able to buy it any more! :oops:


Lifted from the factory where you made Bloodhounds Smithers :-D
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