Cars and prices on eBay are not always what they seem

[Jackonicko]

Cars and prices on eBay are not always what they seem.

So let the buyer beware!

There seems to be a rash of 'fake sales' of Elans, where mediocre cars are being 'auctioned' and where a patsy (a friend of the seller) will bid up the price, and who will place a 'winning bid' if the car fails to reach a decent price. These are not genuine auctions, as there may be one bidder whose only interest is to drive up the price. If he fails to drive it high enough, the seller then tries again, waiting for some mug who will pay more than the market value for the car.

There's a yellow NA that has been 'sold' again and again in this way, with an optimistic owner who still thinks it's worth £4K, and there are two white SEs that are going through for a second time again, as I detailed on the 'Cars on eBay' thread.

Two white NA Elans with similar mileage have reached similar prices (both being relisted) giving a fair old clue as to the market value of a white NA with 90k miles......

£2625 versus £2825.24

1) Cleveland whitey
Having failed to reach its reserve (though it did reach what I now believe to be about it's real worth £2,625) item 300223326134 is now item 300225780570.

J959PPK is white, located in Cleveland (too far away for much of the population to view) with a non standard burgundy interior (nice if that's your thing, but non standard and arguably a bit much on a whitey) and with S2 wheels. It's an NA. It has only a partial history, and the immobiliser has been by-passed. If it's as easy as that to restore, why wouldn't the owner sell with a working, functioning immobiliser? One side light isn't working - has it got an electrical gremlin?

The alloys and bodywork look good in the pics and the rear screen looks top-notch.

The Buy It Now is an over-optimistic £4,250.[/b]

2) Stanley whitey

150246751838, another white NA (G516CJH) has become 150248793473, having reached £2,825.24 last time.

It sold to ian151060 on 17-May-08 at 21:09:27 BST.

The buyer was described by seller ang2668 as "Great Ebayer, good communication, great guy AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA++++++++++++++".

Ian was obviously also very happy, describing the seller as "Great seller, a pleasure to deal with AAAAAAAAAAAA+++++++++++++++++++++++."

How strange, then, that the same car is being sold by the same seller again, having been listed (with a £750 start price) on 18-May-08 at 12:52:34 BST. Had the sale fallen through after just 14 hours? How unfortunate that they'd exchanged such glowing feedback.

Or is this a scam, with 'mates' bidding up the price until they find some innocent to pay more for it?

And if the seller is playing those sort of games, who can believe the mileage, or indeed any element of the description?

Caveat Emptor.

[Foo]

Bleh, eBay is a waste of time nowadays. There are no bargains to be had.

The only use I've found is for the classifieds where I can grab some basic info, and a phone number, then never deal with eBay ever again and instead go direct to the seller.

[tweetdriver63]

Do your homework. Don't pay more than you think something's worth. Don't pay more for something used on ebay that you could buy new for less elsewhere (I see this happen all the time).

I'm currently looking for a Comand 2.0 Nav system for my C Class. On ebay, the correct model seems to always have a buy-it-now in the $850-$1000+ range (used, mind you), and all those I've seen sell auction-style have sold for $550+. Funny thing is, a search on car-parts.com (used parts/salvage yards - breakers, as you europeans call them) reveals $399 as the most common price. I guess most ebayer just don't do any research.

I'm also looking to buy a Dice ipod adapter for the C Class. On ebay, the cheapest I've seen is $410. A quick search reveals $375 + free shipping from autotoys.com.

Remember. There's one born every minute. Don't be that guy.

[GeoffSmith]

You could have knocked me down with a feather when one of my interfaces was sold for £180.

So, I've sold a couple myself and >£50 of extra profit on each has gone to LEC and Bristol Special Care Baby Unit.

In the pond of sharks, it pays to be the fisherman.

[paulrwebster]

Jackonicko,
When you have been to look at a car, have you ever said to the seller, "I'm going to work this out on a calculator, I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised."? I think that you should

[Jackonicko]

Sorry old boy, I don't get your banter.

Is it your way of saying "Well, duh! You must be dense and naive to think anyone wouldn't know that already."?

If so.........

Ho ho ho.

But perhaps it might help other naive souls like me, if there are any.

As to your choice of football team, that really is funny!

[paulrwebster]

The quip was aimed at the fact that, over your various posts, you appear to be particularly price conscious and appear to believe that Elans should be on the market at rock bottom prices.
Anyway, you were intended to take it as a joke.

[The Ref]

Cars and prices on eBay are not always what they seem.

So let the buyer beware!

There seems to be a rash of 'fake sales' of Elans, where mediocre cars are being 'auctioned' and where a patsy (a friend of the seller) will bid up the price, and who will place a 'winning bid' if the car fails to reach a decent price. These are not genuine auctions, as there may be one bidder whose only interest is to drive up the price. If he fails to drive it high enough, the seller then tries again, waiting for some mug who will pay more than the market value for the car.

There's a yellow NA that has been 'sold' again and again in this way, with an optimistic owner who still thinks it's worth £4K, and there are two white SEs that are going through for a second time again, as I detailed on the 'Cars on eBay' thread.

Two white NA Elans with similar mileage have reached similar prices (both being relisted) giving a fair old clue as to the market value of a white NA with 90k miles......

£2625 versus £2825.24

1) Cleveland whitey
Having failed to reach its reserve (though it did reach what I now believe to be about it's real worth £2,625) item 300223326134 is now item 300225780570.

J959PPK is white, located in Cleveland (too far away for much of the population to view) with a non standard burgundy interior (nice if that's your thing, but non standard and arguably a bit much on a whitey) and with S2 wheels. It's an NA. It has only a partial history, and the immobiliser has been by-passed. If it's as easy as that to restore, why wouldn't the owner sell with a working, functioning immobiliser? One side light isn't working - has it got an electrical gremlin?

The alloys and bodywork look good in the pics and the rear screen looks top-notch.

The Buy It Now is an over-optimistic £4,250.[/b]1)
Having failed to reach its reserve (though it did reach what I now believe to be about it's real worth £2,625) item 300223326134 is now item 300225780570.

J959PPK is white, located in Cleveland (too far away for much of the population to view) with a non standard burgundy interior (nice if that's your thing, but non standard and arguably a bit much on a whitey) and with S2 wheels. It's an NA. It has only a partial history, and the immobiliser has been by-passed. If it's as easy as that to restore, why wouldn't the owner sell with a working, functioning immobiliser? One side light isn't working - has it got an electrical gremlin?

The alloys and bodywork look good in the pics and the rear screen looks top-notch.

The Buy It Now is an over-optimistic £4,250.

2) Stanley whitey

150246751838, another white NA (G516CJH) has become 150248793473, having reached £2,825.24 last time.

It sold to ian151060 on 17-May-08 at 21:09:27 BST.

The buyer was described by seller ang2668 as "Great Ebayer, good communication, great guy AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA++++++++++++++".

Ian was obviously also very happy, describing the seller as "Great seller, a pleasure to deal with AAAAAAAAAAAA+++++++++++++++++++++++."

How strange, then, that the same car is being sold by the same seller again, having been listed (with a £750 start price) on 18-May-08 at 12:52:34 BST. Had the sale fallen through after just 14 hours? How unfortunate that they'd exchanged such glowing feedback.

Or is this a scam, with 'mates' bidding up the price until they find some innocent to pay more for it?

And if the seller is playing those sort of games, who can believe the mileage, or indeed any element of the description?

Caveat Emptor.

I live just down the road from were this car is . If anyone wants me to have a look at it for them just let me know.



Billy

[Jackonicko]

I'm glad I laughed, then!

[Jackonicko]

The eBay member ang2668 auctioned a Lotus Elan G516CJH as item 150246751838.

The eBay user ian151060 bid the item up to £2,825.24, winning it in the process on 17-May-08 at 21:09:27 BST.

Feedback was left and received.

Ang2668 described the buyer as:

Great Ebayer, good communication, great guy AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA++++++++++++++

The buyer said of the seller:

Great seller, a pleasure to deal with AAAAAAAAAAAA+++++++++++++++++++++++

I have PDFs of all the relevant pages.

There was no indication that the car had not been bought and sold, though subsequent events make it clear that this had clearly been ‘shill bidding’ aimed at driving up the price.

The seller then auctioned exactly the same car (Lotus Elan G516CJH) as item 150248793473 (with the same photos and description) just a few hours later.

An anonymous ‘bidder 3’ then bid the price up to £2,800.

This means that gemmajessgaz’s first bid of £2,000 was actually the highest GENUINE bid in the auction, and the car should have sold at that price.

At 1400 on 21 May, Bidder 3’s profile indicates that he or she had made one bid on this Lotus at 18:24:38 on 18 May - 2 d 18 h ago.
According to his bid history the same bidder had made three bids on another Lotus – offered by the same seller - the last of them 3 d 11 h ago.

I therefore believe ‘Bidder 3’ and ‘ian151060’ to be one and the same person, shill bidding on the same car, for the same seller.
66% of Bidder 3’s bid activity was with the same seller – one bid on the second auction, three on the first.

By ebay’s definitions of Shill bidding this was clearly against eBay policy and was fraudulent.

eBay’s example reads:
“The seller's Shill Bidding distorted the bidding process and apparent desirability of the bicycle, and Bob paid an artificially inflated price for the bicycle.”

It could be rephrased as:

“The seller's Shill Bidding distorted the bidding process and apparent desirability of the Elan, and gemmajessgaz paid an artificially inflated price for the Elan.”

This is against eBay rules, and is also criminal fraud.

And if the seller is playing those sort of games, who can believe the mileage, or indeed any element of the description?

[Enright]

So have you reported the seller to eBay?

I'd never buy a vehicle off eBay unless I could see it myself before the auction ended, and so could be absolutely sure that I was onto a winner.

Because most people are scared of risking that much money on purchases over the internet, it's no surprise that the auctions don't attract too many bids.

So that doesn't mean that eBay should be taken as a market price guide for Elans. Just the opposite in fact.

And if someone's prepared to let an Elan go for £2k then you can be pretty sure that you get what you pay for, and that means you're going to spend more than the difference to get it into the condition of a £5k car.

[Jackonicko]

I haven't, yet. Though I have tipped the wink to the buyer, in case he/she wants to use the information to get the car for the initial bid, or back out, rapidly.

I did say that I'd be informing fleabay and the Rozzers at 2100 if I didn't hear otherwise.

Surely no-one would buy an Elan from eBay without looking at it?

Of course eBay is not an infallible guide to market prices, but it does at least sometimes give an idea of what price is actually paid - whereas cars on Autotrader and Pistonheads may go for WAY below asking price (eh, Geoff? ) or may hang around for months on end.

[tweetdriver63]

Starting the bidding at a low price does encourage bidding, so doesn't mean the car isn't in good shape. Often, though, sellers do questionable things to prevent having to sell for less than they want. They end the auction early, claiming the car is no longer available for sale, then re-list it a few days later. If you question them, they say a local buyer gave them a deposit, then the deal fell through, or something. There's no way you can prove otherwise.

I've bought 3 cars through ebay, without seeing them in person first, including my Elan. I ask the seller before I bid, if I can get my deposit back and back out of the deal if I don't like what I see in person. I also never have one shipped. I fly there to inspect it and buy it in person, so I haven't turned over the money until I'm sure. One of the cars was from a used dealer, and once I contacted him, he didn't even require a deposit. He picked me up from the airport, and was extremely helpful, and not pushy. Another was from a new dealer, who picked me up at the airport (an hour's drive away). They also took the vehicle to a shop of my choice for inspection before I bought it. Also, it was still under warranty. The Elan was the biggest gamble I took. I didn't have as many assurances (I would have lost my $300 deposit if I didn't buy the car), but I could still back out without bad feedback from the private seller. The seller knew a fair amount about Elans, and gave full disclosure of things like leaky A-post seals (even though I wouldn't have known unless I took it to a carwash or something).

Overall, my experience with buying cars on ebay has been positive. You just have to be smart, protect youself, and if anything looks/sounds at all suspicious, don't go there.

[dapinky]

As many of you know (or may have suspected from other posts i have alluded to), i have a little knowledge of e-bay and the many opportunities for fraud which exist within the system!

Firstly, i must say that i use it myself as both buyer and seller.

Secondly, my elan was an e-bay one - albeit that it was 2 miles from home, and i did the deal 'off line' in person with the seller, knowing full well what i was getting myself into (and now starting to wish that i hadn't ) - only joking - i'm still happy with it!!!

Part of my job profile is investigation of Fraud offences, and this includes 'online fraud' - mainly e-bay, but any interweb system is included.

Since the "new" Fraud Act came into being last year, it is easier to prove an offence of Fraud under section 2, as there is no longer any need to show that anyone was actually deceived, or that the trader was intending to decieve.

The first scenario, it was often the case that the 'buyer' knew that the item was unlikely to be genuine, but turned a blind eye to get a 'bargain' - NO OFFENCE COMMITTED, or knew that the seller was trying to con him, but went on with the deal anyway - NO OFFENCE.

Second scenario - well, you try and get some wide-boy to admit on tape that he was intending to have someone over - it never happened!

Now, all we have to show is that 'on the balance of probabilities', 'an act, or ommission calculated to falsely represent circumstances, or likely to be percieved as such' is all that is required.

Basically, anything which is not correctly worded COULD constitute an offence, but there are always the 'genuine mistakes'. Hence, we arrest/interview and then a decision is made to see if there is a likelyhood of a safe conviction at court (generally, not on the first occassion that the person comes to light).

Looking at your case with the 2 elan adverts, The wording of the advert is okay - it does not (as far as i can see) falsely advertise it as something which it isn't.

As far as the 'bidding' goes, well, it's a public auction, you make your bid and either win or loose. It is not a criminal offence to push up the price, neither is it a criminal offence to give false feedback on conclusion of the 'sale'.

Don't get me wrong, i neither condone nor support what is being done here, and it is a morally wrong thing to do, but it aint criminal!!!!

Caveat Emptor reigns supreme (buyer beware).

Of course, there ARE adds which have been 'looked at' by me and my peers - including some which suggest (or just downright state) that they are selling "rare", "obsolete" or "difficult to find" items, when we all know that Lotus have hundreds in stock for a fiver each!!!!!!

But if they don't allude to these things, then the buyer bids accordingly, and if (as recently happened) they pay more from e-bay than elsewhere, that ain't criminal - just bad form by the seller, and lack of initiative from the buyer. {sorry - no offence intended for anyone who may read this}.

By all means report adverts to e-bay (I often do), but don't expect the seller to be banged up for life, 'cos it won't happen.

Lastly, there is a problem with 'georaphical ownership' of crime reports - ie, if your car gets vandalised outside your house, Local Plod will deal (or at least take the report ).

If it gets nicked, and found 100 miles away, smashed into my car, then 2 different police forces are involved - one for the theft, one for the crash.

With interweb fraud, we have to decide if the investigation is carried out by the local plod to the buyer (where the first report is made), by the old bill where the seller lives (could be anywhere in the world), or by the police where his account is registered.........it all gets very political at 'Corporate' level, in the meantime, i just get on with it at my end.

Suffice to say, I have access to ALL e-bay buyer, seller and deleted accounts, and can find out who owns what accounts, how many are used at any particular address, or by a certain trader and lots of other things as well.

However, i can only access them for legitimate business purposes, and i am regularly audited by the Data Protection Agency - so don't ask!!!!

{and yes, i have looked into people (no longer active) on here, in consultation with Lotus Aftersales and various other persons, and 'words have been had'}

[Jackonicko]

eBay's own guide to shill bidding says that it is both against their rules, but also a criminal offence.

I haven't consulted but that sounds right to me, though I'd be inclined to defer to your knowledge, Dave

[dapinky]

eBay's own guide to shill bidding says that it is both against their rules, but also a criminal offence.

I haven't consulted but that sounds right to me, though I'd be inclined to defer to your knowledge, Dave

Just because something is an offence, doesn't make it 'criminal', and more importantly, e-bay, although operating all round the world, is NOT actually subject to English Law. Even the '.co.uk' site has its operating base in Luxembourg.

It's all a bit of a ploy to 'allow' or at least, turn a blind eye to some of the more dodgy goings on with some level of impunity, knowing that they can't be held to account under our Judicial system.

It took us a long time to build up a raport with the company and get access to their systems, and it is all done virtually on their terms, as they are outside the technical auspices of the Data Protection Act. The 'trade-off' is that we will NOT hold them responsible for anything, or seek to prosecute them.

Who said we live in a land of the free and uphold justice!!!!

[GeoffSmith]

So I shouldn't be surprised that the seller of Lotus parts manuals is still peddling his wares even though I reported it at the weekend (when I was feeling particularly cantankerous) and eBay take copyright theft very seriously?

[tweetdriver63]

So I shouldn't be surprised that the seller of Lotus parts manuals is still peddling his wares even though I reported it at the weekend (when I was feeling particularly cantankerous) and eBay take copyright theft very seriously?

Depends....

Is he selling copies he made, or copies he bought from Lotus? Just like nobody gets upset if you resell your used CDs or books, I don't think they mind if you resell manuals. On the other hand, if he's making illegal copies and selling them, that's definitely against international copyright laws.

But what do I know?

[dapinky]

that's definitely against international copyright laws.

But what do I know?

Not exactly........

Just because the seller states in the advert that they are in the UK and ready for immediate dispatch, doesn't mean that they are.

Presumably the seller has a copy of the manuals which he has personally carried to Burkino Faso, Namibia, Zimbabwe or Khazakstan, where he has personally copied it outside of copyrite laws, and only then sold off his original copy on flea-bay

[clemo]

area should be stated..

i was buying a pair of shoes from me wong from ireland.
he was in fact from china.

his copy paste english was terrible.

Now you may say so what.

well apart from they were not original items but copys an import tax could have been levied.

this would not be the case if the item was from ireland..


reported to ebay.

and they did nothing.