Wilwood 16" kit caliper issues

[tweetdriver63]

Tweeters, might be worth you asking Brian if he has any plans to do some more hats & brackets, & if not, find out if Wilwood would be prepared to make this kit ( bearing in mind a lot of us already have it ),but if they are, Brian might be prepared to give you tech details of them so wilwood could copy........only thinking aloud

I just PM'd Brian about it. I don't know anything about brakes other than what I've read here, and that if I push on the little pedal in the middle, the car slows down (maybe even stops). I think, based on the info for the stock discs for the Honda compared to ours, that the whole Honda kit could work, but would need brackets. If so, there's a seller on ebay with 29 of these kits available at $489 (free shipping to US). I think that's a good price it it works. Best I can tell, the calipers cost at least $125 each, and the rotors (without the hats) are about $75 or $80 each. That's $400 just for the two calipers and rotors + you still need hats and pads and other stuff. If somebody who knows more than I do about this stuff looks into it and thinks there's a pretty good chance, maybe I'll buy a kit and go for it. We might even be able to get the seller to knock a few more bucks off if there's several of us interested.

[bobbrown]

I have checked the Honda kit for clearance and it will NOT fit the Elan with out new hats and brakets all be it the rest of the parts being the same as Brians upgrade.
I would give up on the idea that you can get Honda Civic brakes to fit the Elan you can't.


Bob

[tigerdog]

...I can't lock the wheels up, no matter how hard I push...

Hmm, sounds odd. Smaug wears EBC slotted front rotors and (I think) EBC greenstuff pads (bright green back plate). While I have to push really hard, I can lock the front wheels in a pinch. Usually one locks before both do and they're easier to lock once warm (not hot). Makes me wonder if you might not benefit from just going through the calipers, making sure they slide OK and using a pad with a higher cold-friction coefficient. Or maybe I just have really strong legs from holding up my unfortunate bulk...

[Paul.P]

I agree with Tigerdog, although stock brakes arn't as good as the Wilwoods, i used them with the ceramic pads & they would certainly stop me pretty quick, the biggest improvement i have found with the Wilwoods ( apart from the fact they stop the car damn quick ! ), is i now have brakes with feel, that you can learn & judge.

[nitroman]

I agree with Tigerdog, although stock brakes arn't as good as the Wilwoods, i used them with the ceramic pads & they would certainly stop me pretty quick, the biggest improvement i have found with the Wilwoods ( apart from the fact they stop the car damn quick ! ), is i now have brakes with feel, that you can learn & judge.

I think Paul's onto it. It's kind of crazy to have your goal be locking the wheel, especially just one. I think that's called losing control of the vehicle! The Wilwoods (foremost of all with the 120-6816 calipers) provide extremely precise pedal, and hence vehicle, control.

[bobbrown]

"stop the car damn quick!"
Any brake setup that can apply enough force to cause the wheels to lock will stop the car damn quick, the stopping distance of the stock brakes (assuming in good condition)will be the same as any upgrade and in some cases better Yes better! If you put too much on the front then the rear is doing less and your stopping distance could go up not down as you would hope, never mind the balance.
All of this ignors brake fade due to excessive heat, it has always been a bit of a puzzle as to why the cooling on the stock brakes is on the outside of the disc between disc and the wheel (where the air enters the disc) as there is less air flow in this region as apposed to the other side as most of the brake conversions have it.
You percieve the car to be stopping quicker but its not, if you take two setups one with standard brakes the other with some form of upgrade if the tyres max force it can apply to the road surface before it loses grip is x it is x for both setups
if you have more front bias then you reduce the input the rear is having so you could increase the overall braking distance.
And it has nothing to do with weight transfer as it is the same in all cases.
Might make for an interesting experiment stock brakes against the upgrades, also I suspect if you look at the brake test figures from an MOT they will be the same stock, hi-spec, wilwood, AP again assuming the brakes are in good working condition.
Just be grateful they do not check front to rear as I think some cars with large front calipers and discs would fail.
The only reason I see to upgrade from standard to a 4 pot setup is reliability and better a feel as single pot brakes do not quite give the same feel as fixed pot calipers (be they 2, 4, or 6 pot) plus an increase in the ability of the brakes to disapate heat.

[Doug]

agree with the above from bob. The stock brakes new were very good and were actually some of the best stopping brakes of the time!

the problem is with the use of the system, its design shows flaws: the sliders gum up, the pad pressures on both sides can change because of this, and (I bet many of you have seen this as I have) the caliper even tends to twist and wear the pads unevenly such that you remove the old pad and one end is more than a few mm thicker than the other end. The fixed caliper with 2 or 4 pots is a much better design over time/use as far as I'm concerned--it's just that car makers don't usually want to spend the $$ for the equipment.

[Paul.P]

The only reason I see to upgrade from standard to a 4 pot setup is reliability and better a feel as single pot brakes do not quite give the same feel as fixed pot calipers

It appears we agree on this then Bob

[tweetdriver63]

Anybody have a cross-section diagram of the stock wheels, showing all the clearances?

[nitroman]

Doug, do you remember which brake pad compound (A,E,Q,T) you used with your Wilwoods?

[F1 LOTUS]

Doug, do you remember which brake pad compound (A,E,Q,T) you used with your Wilwoods?

I think they may have been 'T' (aka 'Tan') although I have a feeling he tried Porterfield RS4 too. Don't go too racy with the compound for road use - you'll get build-up and vibration as they need to be used aggressively all the time

[nitroman]

Doug, do you remember which brake pad compound (A,E,Q,T) you used with your Wilwoods?

I think they may have been 'T' (aka 'Tan') although I have a feeling he tried Porterfield RS4 too. Don't go too racy with the compound for road use - you'll get build-up and vibration as they need to be used aggressively all the time

Thanks. My true question was, "Doug, which compund was on your car when I drove it?"
I am perfectly happy with the Q compund I've been using, but since I'll be using the 6806 caliper on my other car I wondered if those were the pads Doogy had on his. Wilwood doesn't make T anymore, but I bought a set of those a fews years back & they are still in the box. They were a slightly more aggressive version of the Q & had a slightly higher warmup temp (they were the pad Wilwood used to recommend for street use until they developed the Q).

[Doug]

now that I see Brian's response it reminds me they were the Porterfield RS4s I think

[nitroman]

now that I see Brian's response it reminds me they were the Porterfield RS4s I think

The Porterfield/Pagid site is defunct. Too bad we can't use these cool discs; no 'clunkety' from grooves. However they are a 7" bolt circle and we need 7.62".

The (smaller) "grooved things" are the only style choice, but they don't have the cache of the Swiss cheese rotors, and you can't get them without the grooves.

[bobbrown]

Is this the usual debate, plain v grooved v drilled or drilled and grooved

Experience (including mine) has proven that cross drilled rotors can develop cracks under hard use!
Brake discs are large heat sinks to dissipate the heat generated from all the kinetic energy put into them when the brakes are applied that is one of the reasons for fitting large diameter and thicker discs.
Many racing teams and brake manufacturers will tell you the same story including AP, in fact AP's latest trick is "J hook" grooves in the disc but again they are relativley shallow.
Modern brake pads no longer out-gas as badly as they did decades ago, so the argument that cross drilling to vent gasses is required is no longer valid.
Grooves improve 'cleaning' of the pad surfaces and result in a more consistent brake performance but their benefits for road use are limited and you will see an increase in pad wear rates.
Cross drilling and even to some extent slotting are appearance modifications only these days. People try to justify drilled or to some extent grooved discs as it makes them feel like they got more for their money, but the facts are that a solid rotor will perform just as well as a drilled or slotted rotor of the same size. However, people want the performance look, so they buy drilled/slotted rotors, even if they provide no increase in performance.
Does painting a brake caliper red improve its clamping force?
Is it worth spending more for a disc that "looks good" when a plain disc will work just as well?

[lotusgirlmarie]

Just curious but you know that wilwood does make a front kit for the Mini and since Mini wheels can fit out cars....... Just an observation

[bobbrown]

Mini has a different wheel offset (ET48 I think) + the caliper mounting bracket/hub will be different.

[GeoffSmith]

Is it worth spending more for a disc that "looks good" when a plain disc will work just as well?

Call me a tight arsed cynic if you like, but that post backs up my uninformed suspicion and makes me feel a whole lot better for going with plains. Thanks Bob!

[nitroman]

Is this the usual debate, plain v grooved v drilled or drilled and grooved

Nope, this is about aesthetics only.

Brake discs are large heat sinks to dissipate the heat generated from all the kinetic energy put into them when the brakes are applied that is one of the reasons for fitting large diameter and thicker discs.

These are thicker: 1.25" VS the kit's .81"

Cross drilling and even to some extent slotting are appearance modifications only these days. People want the performance look, so they buy drilled/slotted rotors, even if they provide no increase in performance.

Yep

Is it worth spending more for a disc that "looks good" when a plain disc will work just as well?

I wouldn't know, since these cost over $30 less ($49.99) than the 16" kit's 'smooth-face' rotors; Wilwood 160-5844 @ $81.95.

I don't take my car on the track, and drive it anywhere from 2k to 6k miles annually, so any heat or pad wear or rotor longevity issues are not a big concern for me.

[bobbrown]

These are thicker: 1.25" VS the kit's .81".

I think you will find that it would be very difficult to get 1.25" thick discs to fit and to do so you would have to reduce the diameter of the disc or increase the wheel offset,
I prefer to stop, and have no inclination to fit drilled discs.

Bob