What buyers want to know (eg: How best to sell your Elan)

[Jackonicko]

What buyers want to know (eg: How best to sell your Elan quickly, and while achieving the best price!)

In a noble effort to keep my pontificating from dragging numerous 'for sale' threads off-topic, Clemo asked me to put some thoughts in a separate thread.

Clemo suggested that this might mean that if sellers or buyers wished to “have my wisdom” then “they can go read it and if not tuff luck to them.” This would, he thought, “help those who can be bothered to read it without clogging up the thread.”

I don’t know about that, but as a relatively recent buyer, and as a potential buyer for a second Elan, I having been following the 'for sale' ads closely, and I’m astonished how often buyers fail to give the kind of information that buyers want, and fail to do all that’s possible to differentiate their cars from those on eBay, Autotrader and Pistonheads.

And the best tool available to help you sell an Elan is information. The more that you can tell potential buyers about your car, the more open and honest you’ll look, and the more they will want to look at your car.

When selling a Lotus Elan, you are selling a car that is AT BEST 13 years old. That’s if it’s S2 No.800!

If it’s an NA or SE, then it’s 16 years old at best. (The last and 3,855th of these (‘last four’ 6622) was built in July 1992).

At worst, you’re looking at selling a 19 year old car.

For newer second hand cars, the usual price guides tend to have handy tables plotting value against age, and they give allowances for trade/private, condition and mileage. They implicitely accept a direct link between age and mileage. The Elan isn't in those guides.

And you’d be mad to assume that there is ANY relationship between age and value when selling an Elan today. There are beautiful, concours condition G-reg cars out there that have had thousands of pounds and thousands of man hours of expert attention lavished on them, and at the other end of the scale, there are tatty and accident-damaged S2s that would be best broken up for spares. Once cars get to this age, the difference between 16 and 19 years is trivial.

As a seller, you want to maximise the price someone will pay, and to achieve that you need to make sure that buyers know the value of what you are selling.

But some buyers may expect a correlation between age and price, so it’s worth explaining to a potential buyer why your G-reg marvel is worth rather more than my dog-rough J-reg car!

As an Elan owner, you know that there is not an unbreakable correlation between mileage and value, though here at least, it can at least be said that all other things being equal, low mileage does often translate into higher asking prices.

Again, buyers may need 'educating' on why your car's price is higher than they might expect from the mileage figure.

If you are selling a high mileage car or a low mileage car, you need to give your potential buyers information, and lots of it, so that they can put the mileage (and the price you are asking) in context.

A tale of two cars
One of our senior US members recently went to look at an S2 with just 14,500 miles on the clock. It had always been garaged, in a rain-free state. Of course the engine bay looked immaculate, and the valves, bores and pistons would have been in great shape. But he (quite rightly) expressed some concern “about driving the car home”. Even if a car was properly stored, on blocks, properly inhibited, seals may be leaking, hoses may have deteriorated, and all sorts of components may have deteriorated unpredictably – perhaps including the gaskets. And the new-looking tyres would certainly need changing, despite the lack of wear. And the 60,000 mile, five-year lifed cam belt (and all the other belts). And if it hadn’t been properly stored and inhibited, what corrosion might there be inside the cylinders, even? Cars of this age thrive by being used, and long periods of inactivity only encourage the gremlins. So if you're selling a car like this, you need to reassure the potential buyer, and not assume that low mileage alone makes it a great buy.

On the other hand, at the same time, another member was selling an older SE with 145,000 miles. But this car had brand new tyres, had recently changed belts, and hoses, leads, coil packs, plugs et al would all have been changed, and kept in decent nick by regular use and regular servicing by owners with a no expense spared attitude. And the engine was rebuilt just four years and 25,000 miles ago at great expense, with a new head gasket and with the block having been pressure tested. But it does have nearly 150,000 miles on the odometer, and any potential buyer would need reassurance about this.

One car was ready to go, and a great drive off the seller’s drive, while the other would require extensive and expensive work before it could be used. If your car falls into either category, it’s worth giving the buyer the information he’ll need to reach a decision.

But there are lots of other factors to consider when it comes to mileage. The buyer will want to know whether they have been ‘hard miles’ or soft? Lots of short journeys means lots of wear and tear, lots of running at less than optimum temperature, and lots of ‘thermal cycles’ on the engine and especially on the turbo. Lots of longer journeys are better. And they may wonder whether the car has been flung around ordinary roads (which will seldom take the engine to its limits) or thrashed around a track, which they may expect to impose wear and tear (if not damage) disproportionate to the number of ‘track miles’. How many Elan gearboxes, hoses, turbos and head gaskets have given up the ghost during or after tracking? How many more have been weakened, but haven’t yet been lost? Think about what the buyer will want to know, and give him the information he wants or needs.

A buyer may want to thrash the car after he’s bought it, but invariably he won’t want a car that has been thrashed by previous owners. Do chips, dump valves, and other performance upgrades indicate how a car has been driven? Is it worth considering how to explain their presence, perhaps, as being upfront about such mods will provide the buyer with useful reassurance.

The bottom line is that not all miles are the same.

It’s all about Condition
So it’s not about age, or mileage, in other words, but about condition and useability. And a loved car that has been regularly used will tend to have a few miles on the clock – 100 miles per week would mean 5,000 miles per annum, so that the newest Elan S2 might have a minimum of 65,000 miles, and the oldest SE would be expected to have covered at least 95,000. Any less than this, and the buyer might want to look hard at the service history and ask you why it was so little used during some or all of its life.

Of course it should go without saying that anyone looking to buy an Elan will tend to go through all of the steps outlined in the buyers guide on the forum (at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7207) and on the Wiki. And they may get an AA/RAC inspection, an HPI check, and, perhaps even a full check by a Lotus specialist like Steve Williams or GST in Newmarket. The seller might be wise to anticipate what might arise from such inspections and examinations, and be ready with explanations and hard information.

Answering the buyer’s likely questions
Any informed buyer will want to ask the owner the right questions to assess what sort of history the car has had, because that history may give a really good prediction of what sort of things might go wrong in the future.

It’s a buyer’s market at the moment, and there are lots of good Elans available at most price points. Remarkably few sellers give all the information a buyer might want to know in their adverts (even here on LEC), and giving that information up-front may give you an edge.

It makes you look up front and open and honest, and can save the buyer time that he might otherwise waste traveling long distances to see unsuitable cars.

The buyer wants to know whether a car is a good one, worth investing his time and money going to see it. The answers to some or all of these questions may give him a good feel for a car, above and beyond what he might glean from a brief description and a bunch of small (and quite possibly flattering) photos.

Assuming that you have given the registration number (or at least the year prefix) in your ad, the buyer will want to know the mileage, and the number of owners. How long have you had the car, and why are you selling? (Read between the lines – the smart buyer will be probing whether this might be a car that’s suddenly getting major bills). Reassurance is best provided via hard information from the service history. Tell the buyers what sort of mileage has the car done per year over the past few years? What sort of written history is there? Are there gaps? (Service stamps plus mileage on MoT certificates is good enough to confirm mileage, but are there bills for recent servicings? If not, is it because you’re Dave Speck or Phil – an ace Elan mechanic who does high quality work themselves, and for whom oil changes and the like are easy?)

If not, you should perhaps tell the buyers who has been doing the servicing? When was it last serviced? How much has been spent on the car in the last year?

When was the cam belt last changed? These should be changed every 60,000 miles or every five years, and buyers know that replacement is a relatively expensive job. If yours was replaced in February, that’s a real selling point.

Does the car have the full leather interior or the half leather? Half leather is worth significantly less, as are customized, non-stock interiors, so if yours has a great, original interior, then don’t wait to be asked, flag it up!

What are the tyres, and when were they last changed? Modern high performance tyres last about six years before the sidewalls may be compromised, so if the age of tyres can’t be proved, the smart MUST assume that they need replacing. If your car has good, recent tyres, and you can prove it, then make the most of it.

Does the car have a Thatcham Cat 1 alarm/immobiliser? NAs and SEs didn’t have one as standard, so can’t be assumed to have one. But having one may dramatically reduce a new owner’s insurance premiums, and will certainly make his new purchase harder to steal, and thus less likely to be stolen? Another big sales point.

Anticipate what the buyer might ask?

Has it had new leads/plugs/coil packs? When? At what mileage?

Has it had new hoses? When? At what mileage?

Has it had a new clutch? When? At what mileage?

Does it have improved/uprated brakes? What make? When were they fitted?

How is the driver’s seat? How much does it sag? Or has it had a new seat cushion or a new diaphragm?


Perhaps the key question is whether a given car is worth the asking price. It’s certainly going to be uppermost in a buyer’s mind, and the sensible seller needs to make sure that he doesn’t put off buyers by asking too much.

If you want to get a good price, you need to justify it, and you need to explain very clearly why your car is worth more than other Elans of the same mileage, which are being advertised more cheaply.

That’s really a question for another post, however. I would say that prices are changing all the time – there is still an underlying downward trend, with some seasonal variation, and this means that a guide to prices posted in May would be very different to one posted in October. Moreover, one has to realize that asking prices are very different to achieved prices, the latter being harder to discover, except for cars sold via eBay.

Having been analyzing asking AND achieved prices over the past few months, I have built up a list of about 150 cars sold or for sale, with asking prices, price reductions on subsequent ads, and with about 20 achieved prices (not including those final bids that did not meet a seller’s reserve).

I therefore have some feel for real world prices today, and with people’s indulgence, I will post a view on pricing shortly.

[Doc Fizzix]

WOW

Someone was up late typing

Good stuff, very well done

[GeoffSmith]

One of our senior US members recently went to look at an S2 with just 14,500 miles on the clock.

S2s were never sold in the US as far as I am aware and as you say, an SE will be several years older than an S2.

I know it's only a forum, but I think we should aim for a high standard of accuracy in our amateur journalistic efforts!

[ailwyn]

I know it's only a forum, but I think we should aim for a high standard of accuracy in our amateur journalistic efforts!

[Jackonicko]

"Someone was up late typing"

I write VERY quickly (which is why so many of my posts are verbose). I was up late waiting to do a phone interview with someone in the Far East.

Can't believe I didn't pick up on the S2 thang.

[Rambo]

Personally, I think what potential buyers need to see in the 1st instance is the WillB approach - good quality photo's from all angles and a short, snappy appraisal of the car and service history thereafter. If a buyer is interested in the car then he/she will enquire further about the finer details with the vendor directly.

I don't think it's advisable to put too much in the advert - after all it's like a CV - the short, snappy ones get my attention - the long, rambly ones end up in the bin. If I was selling my car, which I'm not, I'd have to post 5 pages of A4 with all the relevant info and history

Perhaps it would be a good idea though to have an LEC pro-forma for selling ? That way all relevant info. could be captured

[Jackonicko]

I see your point, Rambo. And when there were fewer cars available, I'd agree whole-heartedly.

But I am looking for another Elan, on behalf of a mate who is somewhere sandy at the mo. But I'm in no hurry, and I'm fussy and I have to tell you that information is what helps me decide whether a car gets onto a shortlist. Moreover, all of the questions that a buyer wants answering can be answered in a short, snappy description.

All it takes is something like:

91 SE (J reg), Calypso red, unfaded, no delamination of clear varnish layer. No cracks or spidering. Minor stone chips on valance and nearside mirror. Full leather interior (original). Driver's seat slightly sagging, but not sufficiently to warrant new diaphragm.
95,000 miles (2,500 since January)
Three owners, present owner since June 05.
FSH (Log book fully stamped (Storm, then Paul Matty), latterly serviced by SW Lotus at recommended intervals, all MoT certificates and advisories present)
Peco exhaust at 82k (June 05)
Cambelt, water pump etc. at 85k (January 06)
AP brakes at 85k.
Coil packs and leads at 87k (July 06)
Four new Toyo Proxes at 90k (March 07)
New hood (carhood warehouse) (Autumn 07)

[Jackonicko]

The contentious bit.

I'll precede it by saying that any Elan is worth as much as an informed buyer is willing to pay for it, and that factors that can't easily be itemised and elucidated can always increase or decrease a given car's value, sometimes very significantly.

No general guidance to the value of a typical Elan is ever going to cater for an Elan like Russ C's black one, nor Phil W's red one, and, as explained above, a raw tally of miles clocked up is always going to be an imprecise and imperfect parameter.

However, looking at some 200 Elan sales/ads, and weighting the results in favour of actual received prices and actual eBay bids, but not ignoring asking prices, however optimistic, I would suggest that the following table gives a rough idea of what you can expect to pay for an Elan as at Autumn 2008. If, like me, you bought an Elan before the 'summer', you've probably lost £500-750 compared to buying the same car today.

Mileage Average value Ceiling
45,000 £6,250-7,000 £8,000
55,000 £4,750-5,500 £7,500
65,000 £4,100-4,500 £7,000
75,000 £3,700-3,950 £6,550
85,000 £3,400-3,650 £6,150
95,000 £3,100-3,350 £5,750
105,000 £2,800-3,050 £5,500
115,000 £2,500-2,750 £5,150
125,000 £2,100-2,350 £4,750

That’s for the private sale of an average condition car in a common colour (Pacific, Calypso, BRG – perhaps less for white), with standard fittings, and with all the age related ‘tattiness’ that you’d expect. (And you'd pay less for a sub-par, below average car, or for a car with problems – non functioning windows, etc. - of course).

Expect to pay more for a trade car.

Expect to pay up to £2,500 more (on a higher mileage car) if a car has some or all of the following:
More for a rare/desirable colour, more for full leather, more for Air Con, more for a good respray, more for good, recent tyres, more for improved brakes, more for spotless wheels, more for a Cat 1 alarm/immobiliser, more for a good hood, more for a recent cam belt/cylinder head gasket or engine rebuild.

I looked in vain for evidence of any price differential based on registration letter, and found none. My conclusion is that two 95,000 cars in equal 'fit', in the same condition, are worth the same, whether G or J plated.

But even with everything right, unless the car is absolutely concours (like Russ C’s black car, or Surfer Phil’s red one), a 95,000 mile car will have a price ceiling of about £5,750, and a 125,000 miler won’t ever be worth more than £4,750.

Unless it’s an S2. You really should expect to pay a bit more for an S2 – I'd estimate at least a £500-1,000 premium for that ?/800 Limited Edition plate!

[clan]

That’s for the private sale of an average condition car in a common colour (Pacific, Calypso, BRG – perhaps less for white

Can we have less of the digs about white elans , I've been saying for ages now that white is the new black, its getting more and more popular every day.

[Jackonicko]

Send me your e-address and I'll send you the list of sales and ads. You'll see that white Elans have not been doing too well, price wise.

They're probably too classy for the run of the mill hoi polloi buyers.....

Let's hope that mollifies your

[clan]

They're probably too classy for the run of the mill hoi polloi buyers.....

Your right, white is just a bit different, it wasn't my first choice colour but seeing it in the flesh along with a relatively low mileage and a full dark grey leather interior swung it for me.

[theelanman]

Jon
youre looking at this far to methodically......trying to apply stats to a passion
this is nearly a classic car and as such theories arent worth much.....
acording to your theories the 60's elan should be free.....Im still looking for one under £12k
why is a lotus cortina £45k...yet a mk2 lotus cortina £5k......
what Im trying to say is your comparison is with parkers guide which again is something they try to explain as a second hand car rather than the classic sportscar we know it as......
I can see where youre coming from but I feel this will only be applicable for the next couple of years....
once the car gets to 20~25years old and becomes a 'classic' (and I dont mean free road tax as it doesnt fall into that category....only car pre 73 get free road tax)
I like what youre doing tho just still dont think that it applies to these cars
cheers
G

[WillB]

WOW!

CLEMO!!!! did you really suggest this thread?!

Hmmm.... I have 'a bit' of experience buying and selling Elans and we already have a good buyers guide to help buyers....

99% (Jackonico being the 1%) of buyers do not ask detailed questions, they would rather just know the basic details and if it sounds like a car for them, they'll come and view/drive. Then they can see for themselves the condition of the car.

The majority of Elan potential buyers are not Elan 'experts' but they do want a good car.

For me, a basic advert is all that is needed/I'd recommend.

Generally, from my personal experience it's 'timewasters' who ask loads of questions, get positive responses but never arrange to view, so never buy the car anyway....

The thing about timewasters is, they never know they are timewasters....

Anyone think of any timewasters??

[Jackonicko]

Gareth,

You may feel that what I say doesn't apply to Elans, but I base what I say on what cars are actually fetching this year. It astonishes me that a rusty MGB is worth more than a reasonable Elan, and I see no justification for such a state of affairs. Now I have one, I hope that Elan values shoot through the roof. Though the best way to classic status may be by the Elan's price stabilising at a relatively low level - making it one of those 'affordable classics' - with an influx of enthusiastic young buyers to take up the torch.

Though the prices I quote may seem low, the Elan still costs much more than an equivalent MX-5, MR-2 or MGF, and that reflects the passion that people rightly and naturally feel for them.

And I'm spurred on by feeling a bit of a tit, to be honest. I bought my tatty 109,000 miler in May for the thick end of £3K, with work needed to get it up to scratch. This month H8VEJ (eBay Item number: 120307699754) with 77,000 miles on it, air con and a stainless exhaust went for £2,327. The 91,000 mile H194UJX went for £2,750. The Cornish black car for £2,900. Countless cars with starting prices of £3,000 didn't attract a single bid. Many more expensive cars have had as much as £1,500 slashed from their asking prices in successive ads. And there are cars that I looked at in May that are still unsold, because their prices are still too high. Clemo and I even know of one West Country car that has been on sale since before Christmas....


Will,

I'll ignore the digs, Mr B.

It's a shame for those who make money from selling Elans, but this is a declining market, and things have changed a great deal this year.

Prices have dropped, and the price sensitive new buyers who are taking advantage of these lower prices have far more cars to choose from.

Compared to last year, there's a glut of Elans. And folk like me (not just me as an individual) want to be able to shortlist those cars that we're serious about, that we're going to go and look at, that we might actually buy, because time is money. Funnily enough, we don't want to drive 100 miles, ask a lot of questions, and then drive home without having achieved what we set out for, which was to buy a sports car. And the more information a seller gives us, the more likely we are to favour their car. I want to know ahead of time whether or not the cam belt has been done - because I'll start making some preliminary decisions about a car before I've seen it. If that info is in the ad, it's a tick in the box for that seller.

There are still buyers who are less price sensitive, and just want the reassurance of buying the best possible car from the most reliable, knowledgeable and trustworthy sellers, and who don't really mind paying over the odds for that peace of mind.

I've steered several such buyers towards your contact details already this year, William. And I believe that at least one of them wasn't a "time-waster."

Is someone who asks lots of questions a time-waster because he didn't buy your car, or is the one who asks loads of questions and then walks away a canny buyer who simply didn't like the answers he got?

In the case of one of your cars, I'd very much doubt that, as buying from you, SurferPhil or Clemo should give a buyer some priceless reassurance that he's buying a good one.

But I asked a lot of sellers a lot of questions before buying an Elan, and I'm sure that many of those who now have an Elan on their drive did so too.

And remember that if you're selling, the Time-waster (sorry, customer) is always right.

[Jackonicko]

clan,

Don't get me wrong. I'd have bought a white one, if it was the right car, and for the right money, and indeed I may yet do so when I buy the next one.

[WillB]

That's all fine.....but the point of this thread (apparently) was to 'help' sellers......

I think you've lost your way a bit to be honest.....

Luckily, I don't (and never have) had to make a living out of Elans. The reason I got into it originally, was at age 24 (10 years ago now) I purchased my 1st Elan (a BRG N/A) because I loved the look, and the way they drove. Still do....

I'd be the 1st one to admit the market is terrible. I use to get 1 or 2 serious enquiries a week in the spring/summer months. Now I'm down to around 1 a month, if that.

Sorry, what was the point of this thread again? You've got me going off on another tangent now!

Anyway, how many Elans exactly have you bought? I appreciate what you feel you need to know about a car. But surely you understand most people are not like you....

To be honest I've never come accross any Elan buyers who ask the questions you do...... so not sure you should be advising 'sellers'

Apologies for the dig about being a timewaster, but many people think you are......

I have no idea how monitoring prices of Elans you've never seen helps. I've never done anything like that, or considered it.

How exactly all of this is helping LECers I've no real idea

If I was looking for an Elan or had one for sale, I'd be even more confused having read all of the above.

[Monty]

IMHO and it`s

Jon
There`s a Elan Buying Help section, this is Elans for sale

I`ve not read everything on this thread as I just CBA, but your a man on your own. Most on here have a problem with you going on with yourself and trying to dictate the buyers market for the Elan.

There`s no harm in giving advice (in the correct thread), buyers can see what Elans are going for through LEC, PH, Autotrader etc for themselves. There`s no need to go in to so much detail on the price of elans.

[Jackonicko]

Your fame precedes you, Will.

I'd heard of Will B******m before I ever heard of LEC.

You ask how many Elans I've bought.

Just one so far, and another where I did everything but write the cheque.

You also ask the question as to how "monitoring prices of Elans you've never seen helps."

It gives a better idea of market value than guessing.

I've monitored prices closely to ensure that I have the best possible idea of the 'going' market rate, to enable me to pay the right price.

Knowledge of what prices are achieved and how these differ from asking prices can be powerful ammunition for a buyer when he tells the seller why £3,200 is a bit much for his pride and joy.

Certainly having a graph in hand showing the trend of prices against mileage, and knowing that the car at point 10 was above the curve because it was one of Will Bs, and the car at point 15 was being sold with a warranty by a dealer, helped me to drive a hard bargain when I bought mine, and the same ammunition was used by one of my clients' conference people when she bought hers - a sale for which I'm claiming credit! By the end of the year, I confidently expect to have bought another Elan, in addition to my own.

I couldn't buy and sell Elans for a profit - I don't have the skills to add value, and I don't see much profit in it at these sort of prices. So a big hats off to you for doing so, and winning quite such a reputation in the process. But that doesn't mean that I haven't ducked and dived with other cars - and some advice is universal across car types.

I'm happy to share what I've learned with fellow LEC members who are buying, so that they don't pay too much, and I'm just as happy to share with sellers, too, in the hope that it may help them to get a fair price and a quick sale.

My original post was intended to be useful to the seller, because if he knows what questions buyers want answered, he can answer them up front, giving a good impression, and making his car's advantages more apparent, more quickly. By knowing what sort of prices are being achieved, he can price it competitively or prepare his explanation as to why his car is worth more than that median price.

"How exactly all of this is helping LECers I've no real idea. If I was looking for an Elan or had one for sale, I'd be even more confused having read all of the above."

Simple. If you're a seller, know what the going market price is, and price your car accordingly, or have a really compelling justification as to why yours costs more. Know what the buyer wants to know, and serve it up to him on a plate. Making his decision making process easy will increase your chance of getting the sale, and will also make you look like a decent, straight, helpful seller. It shouldn't be that confusing.


Monty,

I'm not dictating anything. I believe that some sellers could do more to sell their cars. Many don't give answers to the most basic questions that a buyer will want to ask. Others price their cars so unrealistically that they hang around for months without a nibble.

Actual achieved prices are lower than I'd have expected, but you wouldn't know that unless you'd been monitoring them for a while. I have been, and am happy to share that simple factual information with buyers and sellers alike.

Some sellers may appreciate the advice and the spirit in which it's offered, and that's great.

Others may think that I'm a pumped-up pompous f***wit time-waster, and that's fine too. No need for apology or embarrassment.

At least I'm doing it in this thread, as requested, rather than dragging for sale threads off topic.

You can't please all of the people, all of the time.

[daveA]

As a newbie who has never owned an elan before untill now,I find all of this very intresting. Both Willb and Jackonico make valid points.
When I was looking for an elan I started to enquire/look into and find out as much as I could buy asking people who owned/worked on them , this started at Donington 2 years ago (on/off ) call me a timewaster if you want too.
I personally try to find as much information as I can,ok in this case it took longer than even I expected, but I was in no rush.
Finding the LEC was a god send....
I am happy with what I payed for the car and the seller was happy with what he got,some will say I could have payed less,but the most important aspect for me was condition,what had been done/not or had to be... right now I have only got to do the usual mot/service for many a mile to come (Touch wood) but if goes wrong then I will cross that bridge when I get to it .......

[Jackonicko]

Holy cow, Dave!

I don't know what you paid for Russ C's black car, but it's a beauty, and it's one of those cars whose value was out of kilter with what any mileage/price table might suggest. It's a car that many of us coveted, myself included.

Well done and good luck with it.