rear hubs/discs

[ailwyn]

The rear bearings sit in their own race (which need to be pressed into the hub).

[RayD]

if you use VW ones the seal is a bit of a debate but as the ones from SJ are around £4.00.

This bearing kit has the proper seal in the box.

The Vauxhall Carlton 78-86 Kit LBK 8030, contains…
KLM 11710 (11749 on inner race) Daewoo MGM
KL 45410 (KL 45449 on inner race) Daewoo MGM
Seal 40- 52- 5 -7

Detail on the box
OEM
BRT = BRT 553
QH = QWB 155C
TEC = Kit 086
VEC = VK424
Bar Code 5 012641 109665

Ray

[bobbrown]

I have the bearings down as the following

LM11749/LM11710
0.6875x1.5700x0.5450 inch

L45449/L45410
1.1417x1.98x0.5600 inch

Seal 40 - 52/62 8.6/7

the seal has a shoulder on it so from the numbers they read
Internal diameter 40mm external diameter 52mm to fit in the bore and 62mm to fit on the outside internal height 8.6 and 7mm
like this

seal.jpg

[RayD]

The 40 – 52 / 62 8.6 / 7 is the one I removed, so it's probably the original.

The GM one is the same flanged design but has a serrated face on the 52mm diameter and fits perfectly.

Out of interest does anyone know where the VW seal differs?

Ray

[dapinky]

Ray,

I believe Paul Watkins spotted the differences and put a picture up (but i can't find it at the moment).

I used the seal which cam with the VW bearing kit, and it hasn't leaked yet

[RayD]

Thanks Dave,

Paul put some measurements on here I wonder if it's only the outside diameter of the flange that's different?

Ray

[bobbrown]

the only dimensions that are critical here are
od, so it fits in the hole, 52mm
id, so it fits on the shaft, 40mm
and seal depth 7mm
You could use a seal without a flange and it would still work, the trick would be to install it flush and it need to be double lip.
One keeps the grease in and the other the dust and water out.
so a 52 40 7 would do.

I am going to check with my local bearing chap to see if he can supply the bearings and the seals at a good price.
Will probably not be as cheap as the cheapo wheel bearing prices as they will be a quaility bearing SKF and the like but will not know if I do not ask.

Bob

[bobbrown]

I've had to change the design slightly as I have been unable to source the capscrews I was going to use.
This is probably a better solution as it involves a steel insert much like a Helicoil but this is a solid steel piece that screws into the hole and is locked at the bottom by the insert being expanded into the hole so it can not or should not come out that easy.

timesert.gif

This will allow the use of the standard wheel bolts so that makes life easier all round.
the cost will remain the same as what is taken away on one hand is added back in on the other.

hub mod1.jpg

Bob

[vix.tabellae]

Am I missing something or will the new rear hubs be 60mm? If so, how will a wheel with a 56.6mm bore fit? Oh and I work at a GM dealership and today I measured a 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt 4 bolt front disc. It is 256mm by 23.69mm with a 56.6mm bore. That might be a cheap (less than $30 each) direct replacement for the front rotors.

[bobbrown]

Am I missing something or will the new rear hubs be 60mm? If so, how will a wheel with a 56.6mm bore fit? Oh and I work at a GM dealership and today I measured a 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt 4 bolt front disc. It is 256mm by 23.69mm with a 56.6mm bore. That might be a cheap (less than $30 each) direct replacement for the front rotors.

The center spigot is the same as standard, it is very similar to our current front but has bearings (same as our current rear) to fit the stub axle and retains the position of the wheel relative to the car.
Disc location on the front hub is off the outside diameter of the hub NOT the center spigot.

[dapinky]

Bob,

Just getting a bit of 'catch-up' time, and have come up with a couple of points which i would like clarified (it's probably because i was working nights and have been up all day and can't think straight - i'm sure it's just me missing something bloody obvious). Some of what i'm saying is thinking out loud, and stating the obvious, but please bear with me until i (eventually) get to the point.

Originally, the hubs were to be made in aluminium and anodised, and fitted with studs, they would have had the great benefit of only having to change the seperate discs in future.
Now, i got my head round that lot and could see big advantages to the whole thing, so jumped on board.

As i read a bit more, i have got confused (possibly mixing threads hasn't helped). For some reason, i got it into my head that the wheel offset was going to be changed due to putting a disc on the outside of the hub, thereby moving the wheel out by whatever the thickness of the disc is going to be.

When i saw the cutaway drawing by Brian, it made more sense to me, as the hub was going to be machined to put the disc in the same relative position as the original.

Can you confirm that the discs you had listed for the Astra 1.4 (12.5mm thick) will put the disc in the same relevant position on the hub, and keep the wheel offset the same (+60mm) for use with standard rear callipers?

If that is the case, what hapens with the brake upgrade (which i'm not in for at the moment) which uses thicker discs? Does this put the offset out, or is the whole 'shape' of the disc different so that the wheel stays in the same place and the disc still lyes in the same place???


As the project has developed, it has gone away from studs in anodised aluminium, and ended up with bolts in steel - i think i understand why, as i've had it explained to me by someone who does fully understand the reasons

My next question, if we are now going to use bolts, what length bolts do we need to clear the brake disc and thread into the hub. Am i correct in thinking that it is just a case of extending the current length by 12.5mm, or is it really not that simple, and other forces are excerted due to passing through an un-threaded steel disc before entering the hub?
Are the bolts being supplied with the hubs, or do i need to source some? Any idea what the price is?

Finally, just to appease the financial purse-string holder, can you make it extremely simple what advantage i am getting over just having a set of old hubs machined down to remove the brake disc, and then fitting a seperate Astra brake disc over it.
With Aluminium, anodising and studs, she could see the difference/advantage - now she cant (especially as neither car needs new rear brakes anyway!).

Sorry for being dense!

(I can't believe that i don't understand this when it appears that even Manchester United have got their heads round it )

[bobbrown]

dapinky hope this helps answer your questions.
1.The position of the wheel remains exactly where it is supposed to be no change to offset.
2. You can not machine the existing hub to accept the brake disc as there will not be enough material left to hold the bolts.
3. Wheel bolts remain the same as the setup is much as it is on the front.

a.jpg

4.The discs used for the standard caliper are 236mm diameter x 12.5 thick 41mm overall height, as per Astra/Corsa fronts
http://www.apec-braking.co.uk/apec_deta ... ALL&oeref=
5. With brake upgrades the position of the wheel remains the same with a new bracket to mount the new calipers.
6. There are a range of different disc sizes to allow for adjustment of the brake bias to match what is fitted to the front.
7. The big advantage over the standard setup is that you can now just change the discs for a fraction of the cost of a new set of standard discs, cost as little as £23.24 (set I purchased delivered) the pair.
Bearings and seals if properly maintained should last for years and years.

Bob

[dapinky]

Bob,

Thanks for that - just to clarify, are you saying that the current wheel bolts can be re-used? I thought they were marginal length anyway, even without a 12.5mm 'spacer' between the hub and wheel?

The discs arn't an issue to me (I can get them locally for £8), but i'm now trying to ensure it isn't going to cost me a fortune on wheel bolts (normal and locking ones) just to get something which i don't need, and isn't an advantage to me......

.....as i said, i could see the point in an aluminium one with studs, but a steel one with bolts isn't the same

[bobbrown]

Bob,

Thanks for that - just to clarify, are you saying that the current wheel bolts can be re-used? I thought they were marginal length anyway, even without a 12.5mm 'spacer' between the hub and wheel?

The discs arn't an issue to me (I can get them locally for £8), but i'm now trying to ensure it isn't going to cost me a fortune on wheel bolts (normal and locking ones) just to get something which i don't need, and isn't an advantage to me......

.....as i said, i could see the point in an aluminium one with studs, but a steel one with bolts isn't the same

what 12.5mm spacer????
The disc thickness at the hub mounting face is 6mm
The wheel bolts front and rear are the same so what is good on the front will be good on the rear.

£8.00 the pair or each?

[dapinky]

what 12.5mm spacer????
The disc thickness at the hub mounting face is 6mm
The wheel bolts front and rear are the same so what is good on the front will be good on the rear.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that the disc is in fact, 6mm thick, not the 12.5mm i thought it was

[bobbrown]

One of the other problems with the standard rear hub is that it is a cast iron item and as such the wheel bolts are an issue, threads can strip in the hub quite easily.

[ailwyn]

The discs arn't an issue to me (I can get them locally for £8)

Dave,

As I read this I get the impression that you can get stock rear disks for £8?? I'm guessing this can't be the case

If you are referring to stock fronts for use on the rear then you'll need the hubs, this is where the cost advantage comes in, although you probably already know that

I'm lost

[dapinky]

Ailwyn,

It all makes perfect sense if you've been awake for 2 days and are now sitting in a warm lounge with a can of cider!!!!

What i mean is i can get the Astra 1.4 disc to use with the new hub for just under £8 each (part number DSK 117), so the cost of those isn't an issue in the greater scheme of things - i was more concerned that there was also going to be extra costs with needing long wheel bolts to go with the hub.......

If you are referring to stock fronts for use on the rear then you'll need the hubs, this is where the cost advantage comes in, although you probably already know that
I'm lost

That's the whole point - I know that IN THE FUTURE it will possibly save money, but as both my cars have newish rear discs (with new bearings!) on them, i was wondering what i was gaining now
I'm one of the few people around here who is happy with standard brakes anyway (in good fettle) so potential to swap bits around doesn't come into it.

Anyway, Bob has answered most of my points raised, so it doesn't matter if you are still confused

[ailwyn]

With you, sort of.

My understanding is this will be a bulk job only, so get the hubs now and worry about the rest later.

[GeoffSmith]

Many thanks Bob, I owe you a beer or six.

The total came in at £177.25 (£130.48 for Bob's conversion plus £24.00 for bearings plus £22.77 for discs from Eurocarparts) which is just under the price from SJs (£179.40 + bearings? + postage). It only took a couple of hours to change them over and any future discs replacements will only cost around 20 quid.