water pump - do they fail?

[madbilly]

Hiya,
I need to change the cambelt and I was wondering whether or not to bother changing the water pump as well. As far as I can work out it's never been changed. Do they have a tendency to fail?
Cheers,
Will

[ashm]

If you're doing the cambelt it's not much extra hassle or cost, and if you need to replace the water pump at some other time you'll have to take the whole cambelt job apart again, which would be a real pain.
Because of this a lot of people (including me) will do it at the same time, but I'm not sure how often they really fail. It probably depends what you mean by "fail". Eventually it'll probably start to leak as the seals go, but a catastrophic failure is not impossible. I've had a water pump fail suddenly and massively on a different car, resulting in instant coolant loss, warped head and all the rest. I don't recall hearing any similar stories from an Elan owner though...

Adam

[HJ2]

Yup! They usually start leaking when cooled down, (but rare) or the vanes start corroding and then you'll have to do the job all over like Adam says.
I would do the lot! (Belt, Pump, seals and pulleys)

[bobbrown]

False economy not to change it when you consider all the time energy and effort never mind money to change the cam belt the cost of the pump is small in comparison.

Bob

[hodge]

I recently bought an elan where only the belt had been replaced (at 96k). The previous owner who changed the belt himself confidently assured me ' the bearing felt ok and it wasn't leaking so left well alone', a week after getting it home it had emptied the contents of the expansion tank. It seems to leak only when cold as HJ2 says. I've bought the belt, tensioner, idler and waterpump from RockAuto, with postage, customs, vat etc they cost around £150.
All the various threads on this subject (now so familiar I could quote in my sleep . . . probably do) going back several years, recommend replacing all the above as a matter of course at this mileage if no evidence of previous replacement. I find myself nodding in agreement .

[madbilly]

Yeah, I did figure it made sense to change the pump at the same time, the only additional difficulty is collecting the coolant and disposing of it properly.

So on RockAuto I can see the Elan, but it doesn't have many parts associated with it. I assume I need to pick the right parts from Isuzu cars like it says on the wiki.

[bobbrown]

RockAuto lets you search by part number
this is what I ordered

ACDELCO 252227 Water Pump
Or CARDONE SELECT 5573619 Water Pump (have a spare)
GATES T169 Timing Belt
GATES T42001 Timing Belt Pulley
GATES T41027 Timing Belt Tensioner

You may want to add in the alternator and PAS belts while your at it
Gates K040270 alternator
Gates K060380 pas no air con
Gates K060415 with air con

Bob

[Rambo]

When it came to do the cam belt I did everything else (water pump, cam belt tensioner, timing belt, pulley, alternator and air con belts)

I got the lot from RockAuto (their service is excellent) and despite the hefty taxes, which unfortunately are unavoidable, I still saved hundreds on what the parts would have cost me here. I did a joint buy and split the postage and taxes and it worked out even better for the both of us

[madbilly]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the advice. I've taken quite a while to get round to buying anything, but in the meantime I did find a place called EAsupplies.com that sells Dayco belts - the alternator, PAS and timing belts come to £60 delivered in the UK. Together with the pulleys and water pump from Rockauto (£70 delivered including shipping and taxes) this is £130, instead of £175 all shipped from RockAuto (for the parts that I was going to buy anyway).

But, I can't find a crankshaft pulley anywhere except in the UK from Lotus specialists, about £110 from SJ Sportscars. I presume they're common to all cars that use that engine, so is there anywhere else I can get one from? Or am I just being dense and they're called something else in the UK?!

Cheers,
Will

[bobbrown]

It is not normal to replace the crankshaft pulley or the camshaft ones, just all the bits in between

[ashm]

I did find a place called EAsupplies.com that sells Dayco belts

Interesting - I just came across that place the other day, looking for something completely different. If anyone's interested they appear to be one of very few online UK sources of F1 felt cord & sheet for machine wicks, wipers etc.

Adam

[Rambo]

I'm fairly sure the crankshaft pulley was on the last Lotus aftersales list. Lots of ££££ of normal price as well

[madbilly]

Okay, got the parts. I'm planning to do it this weekend, do you think it's likely I'll need spare bolts for the pulleys and water pump, or a spring for the tensioner? If so, any ideas on sizes?

[madbilly]

Does anyone know the sizes for the water pump, idler and tensioner pulley bolts?

In your experience, is it wise to have spares ready? What about the tensioner spring?

[dapinky]

Billy,

Not sure about the sizes, but when i did mine the top one (idler) was a bit of a bugger to get out - luckily i had the head on the bench so i just ground the head off it, removed the idler, and then the shaft undid with my fingers Replacement was with a bolt i purchased locally from stock - i don't think it's specific (except for the fact that the original is a star head and i replaced it with a standard hex head of the same tensile strength).

The tensioner one was re-usable, and so was the spring.

It is hard to say if you will need replacement ones until you remove (or knacker whilst trying to remove) them.

[HJ2]

I thought mine just failed.
I just took the lot off (timingbelt & all) and want to place the new one.

But now it looks like it was just the seal that started leaking.
What do you guys recon:

1. Place the new pump with just the supplied gasket
2. place the pump with the supplied gasket AND a smear of RTV on both mating surfaces
3. Use RTV only as a gasket...

I really don't fancy doing this all over AGAIN for the 3rd time, as the 'old' pump was on just for 500 Kilometers!
Tips 'n tricks welcome!

[dapinky]

For me, the decision is always based on how clean the surfaces are - if the old gasket comes off dry, and the surfaces are perfect, then the new one goes on dry.

If the old one leaves a bit of an unknown surface, or came off with a bit of RTV on the surface, I replace with a smear of RTV on the new gasket.

(Generally, for a water pump, I'd use a smear of RTV on the gasket 'just in case')

[Steve A]

If it's meant to have a gasket then I'd use it, as this is the most important part of the seal,
with or without RTV well that's a tough decision as it's not something you want to revisit,
given the situation I'd probably go belt and braces

[HJ2]

Hmmzzz....

Well, I applied a thin coat of (blue RTV) on the pump, put the gasket on and applied another thin coat on the gasket side facing the engine... so far so good...
BUT I CAN'T GET THE BLOODY THING BOLTED ON! Now this is a first... It is almost as if the dimensions between the holes are off somehow...

I cleaned the gasket to block side for now and the block as well from the RTV. I intend to let the RTV dry further (pot life was running out to get it together anyway)
Then I will drill or cut the holes in the gasket a little larger as they appear smaller that the holes in the aluminum of the pump

Funny as the last few pumps went on easily and did not develop any leaks! (with gasket + RTV that is)
I'm off to bite a chunk out the bonnet now

[Steve A]

I'm assuming your new pump came from the same source ?
If your previous pumps were so different to fit could this new one be a cheap pattern part ?
It could have the same part number and have been bought from the same shop, but they may have changed supplier (to save money), just a thought