Fastcat Boost Control (ESM Chips - Performance & discussion)

[surfboardfiller]

I have just fitted a Manual Boost Controller and have some questions for the Guru.

Will the standard ECU automatically keep up with higher boost pressure or will I get incompatibility issues?

Does the MBC do the same job as an Everest chip?

Will bad things happen if I take the car for a run?

Thanks,

Phil

[tigerdog]

Kind of the wrong place to be discussing MBCs, Phil. This thread is about ESM chips. As to the differences between an MBC and an ESM chip: the ESM chip is smart and keeps your car from blowing up if you do something stupid by monitoring lots of parameters and shutting off the boost if things get out of line. With an MBC, the only thing that keeps you from blowing something up is your own personal brain and the time it takes for you to lift your foot. As to whether the stock ECU, injectors, etc., are able to cope with the added boost, there are lots of threads about these subjects but the common wisdom says don't boost above 1BAR with stock injectors.

[surfboardfiller]

I'm not discussing MBC's Doug, I'm discussing ECU & Chip. Ironically you are discussing MBC's and I think you will find that's off topic on this thread.

[rip]

I have just fitted a Manual Boost Controller and have some questions for the Guru.

Will the standard ECU automatically keep up with higher boost pressure or will I get incompatibility issues?

Does the MBC do the same job as an Everest chip?

Will bad things happen if I take the car for a run?

Thanks,

Phil

Mountain chips have been programmed with a higher target boost rather than the stock chip's 0.65BAR. They retain the overboost cut-off, but this is raised a little because the stock injectors can cope with a little more fuel than the stock chip is set to cut off at.

An MBC tricks the ECU into thinking it is providing less boost than it actually is, so it holds the wastegate open. It shouldn't matter what chip you have because the ECU should see it as less than 0.65BAR.
So an MBC puts fuelling under control of a manuallu adjusted valve rather than a computer which can make adjustments hundreds of times a second.
In theory, an MBC can be set to boost too high, which can result in fuelling being too lean, which can lead to pistons overheating.
You would probably be fine in a road car because you are only ever to be on full boost & full throttle for short periods.
I have a feeling your talking about the Fastcat though?

[surfboardfiller]

Hello Ian,
** EDIT: I got this all wrong it should be SBC Not MBC:***
The MBC doesn't trick the ECU, the ECU does not control the waste gate at all with the MBC fitted and the MBC doesn't communicate with the ECU.
MBC calculates a lot quicker and better than the ECU, the waste gate is controlled electronically, not manually, the MBC is manually adjustable to set boost level but the box controls the waste gate. I have a hybrid Turbo too.

Yes, that's it; I am concerned that the ECU will not know what's going on with the boost pressure and therefore not fuel correctly as the ECU still controls fuelling.
Like you said: the ECU/Mountain chip activates the fuel cut off but with the waste gate not under control of the ECU will it work well/badly or not at all.
I am hoping to find out if the ECU can fuel properly or be made to cut fuel/reduce fuel SAFELY in event of over boost with an ESM chip. Optimise performance and avoid melt down of course.
Yes, Fast Cat (track car) modification.

[hodge]

Post here any driving impressions, dyno data, links to ElanScan logs etc. relating to the mountain chips.

[saska]

Phil, I'm not a guru but I'll tell you what I think and explain my reasoning. May help until ESM shows up.
The ECU reads the amount of boost from the MAP sensor off the intake plenum. This figure is essentially the current MAP reading minus the barometric pressure read at ignition switch on.
The ECU adjusts fuelling via injectors (pulse width). According to the engine management manual the ECU cuts fuel; a) when the MAP sensor registers overboost, b) when the engine is switched off (to prevent dieselling) and c) when no CAS signal is received (engine not turning). The ECU cuts fuel in the overboost situation via the injectors which it still has control of so it should still cut fuel at 0.95 Bar with an Everest.
Regarding the engine protection (richen mixture at high boost/high revs) this should still work for similar reasons. The ECU can still detect high revs and high boost (via the MAP) and still control the amount of fuel via the injector pulse width.
With the normal setup the boost contol is done by causing a controlled leak to stop the wastegate opening too early -- the ECU doesn't know if this works or not. The only way it knows about boost is via the MAP hence why stuck wastegates have had people eating steering wheel at fuel cut.
For similar reasons I believe the ESC (electronic spark control) should also work as normal (well Everest normal).
HTH

[surfboardfiller]

Thank you! That's a brilliant response, it seems all I need is an Everest chip to up the boost level at which the fuel cut off operates.

[JonT]

Phil, I'm not a guru but I'll tell you what I think and explain my reasoning. May help until ESM shows up.
The ECU reads the amount of boost from the MAP sensor off the intake plenum. This figure is essentially the current MAP reading minus the barometric pressure read at ignition switch on.
The ECU adjusts fuelling via injectors (pulse width). According to the engine management manual the ECU cuts fuel; a) when the MAP sensor registers overboost, b) when the engine is switched off (to prevent dieselling) and c) when no CAS signal is received (engine not turning). The ECU cuts fuel in the overboost situation via the injectors which it still has control of so it should still cut fuel at 0.95 Bar with an Everest.
Regarding the engine protection (richen mixture at high boost/high revs) this should still work for similar reasons. The ECU can still detect high revs and high boost (via the MAP) and still control the amount of fuel via the injector pulse width.
With the normal setup the boost contol is done by causing a controlled leak to stop the wastegate opening too early -- the ECU doesn't know if this works or not. The only way it knows about boost is via the MAP hence why stuck wastegates have had people eating steering wheel at fuel cut.
For similar reasons I believe the ESC (electronic spark control) should also work as normal (well Everest normal).
HTH

I was going to post something similar (honest!)

The only concern I would have is whether there's anything predictive in the ECU map or whether it's entirely reactive to MAP readings. If the manual boost controller can react faster than the normal setup then there's potential for problems if the ECU is predictive.

[surfboardfiller]

The MBC is quicker at calculating the waste gate/boost control. There will be less compensation required by the fuelling with less fluctuation of pressure and loss of boost control (stalling, turbulent flow etc) as the MBC will stay on top of the boost control. That's one of the main reasons for using it.

[rip]

The MBC is quicker at calculating the waste gate/boost control. There will be less compensation required by the fuelling with less fluctuation of pressure and loss of boost control (stalling, turbulent flow etc) as the MBC will stay on top of the boost control. That's one of the main reasons for using it.

I disagree with the statement but don't disagree that it may suit your purposes better.

A mechanical valve cannot do any calculations, so how can this possibly calculate anything more quickly than an ECU?
It simply lets excess pressure bleed into another part of the system, which in certain circumstances may be exactly what you want.

If it does not trick the ECU, then I would be interested in seeing some Elanscan logs to prove this. If the ECU was aware of what is going on, then it would adjust the wastegate to compensate for the exhaust leak created by the MBC but I do not believe this happens.

[surfboardfiller]

That's not how an MBC works Ian. I'm new to this too, so I don't really know how the old system worked but I think it was BCV and ECU controlled? (correct me if I am wrong).

The MBC replaces the whole boost control system and is not connected to the ECU. The standard Boost Control Valve is removed from the car (and given to a needy and worthy Elan owner). The pressure feed to the BC Valve is blanked off, the wires to the BCV tied back/not connected to anything and the crossover pipe from the waste gate to the pressure feed (on the turbo shell) is removed.
The MBC is electronically connected to a new solenoid which is connected to the waste gate and the pressure feed by silicone tubes (less than 3 feet long).
A teflon air pipe is connected to the plenum just after the throttle body and goes to the MBC unit on the dash (or wherever, ideally in view/reach of the driver). This pipe lets the controller take an accurate pressure reading from which it controls the solenoid.

I was told by Shaun that the MBC samples at a much higher rate than the ECU.

[GeoffSmith]

Iain is 100% correct Phil. A Manual Boost Control or MBC can be made by visiting http://www.bogsRus.com or your local plumbers merchants and bleeding air (or reducing the pressure) of the connection from the turbo to the BCFV.

I believe you have an Electronic Boost Control or EBC or simply a Boost Control. If what you say is correct and there is no connections between the ECU and the EBC, how does the EBC know what boost to provide? The ECU has inputs from the throttle, coolant temperature, engine speed etc. so knows not to try to boost at tickover with 0% throttle or when the engine is cold!

Anyway, assuming your EBC has inputs to enable it to determine the level of boost correctly, you still have the safety of the stock chip overboost fuel cutoff at 0.92bar; if this proves to be problematic then you could ask ESM to provide a chip with an increased cutoff (it is specifically addressed somewhere on http://ealanach.co.uk/elanchips/) but it can only ever be increased to 1 bar overboost as the ECU uses a 2 bar sensor.

PS When I have time, I'll move this to a separate topic area as the subject is not specifically related to Mountain performance - the questions apply equally to the standard chip.

[surfboardfiller]

Server not found

Well I didn't come on this thread to discuss the * Boost controller, I came here to see if I needed a mountain chip and if a chip would help or work against my new system, which I think is on topic.
But as usual I find myself defending my comments and being taken off topic by people who don't intend to help me at all, just pick at little things I happen to mention, whilst I'm trying to get a simple answer from someone who knows what I'm talking about.

It's a voyage of discovery for me, I know what I want to achieve, I don't want to discuss the merit of it or how right wrong I am (which is off topic), I genuinely don't care if you all think I'm wrong.
Tony is the only person to actually help me with this query, which is testament to his character.

Since Tony has answered the initial question the follow up is: how can an ESM chip help improve the performance of my car considering my new setup? Which I guess is one for The ESM

Do what you want with my posts, it seems the moderators on this forum are more concerned with their own pedantic urges, than keeping the forum free of the junk posts or helping as usual, which is why I regularly get put of having anything to do with this forum.

[JonT]

Well I didn't come on this thread to discuss the * Boost controller, I came here to see if I needed a mountain chip and if a chip would help or work against my new system, which I think is on topic.
But as usual I find myself defending my comments and being taken off topic by people who don't intend to help me at all, just pick at little things I happen to mention, whilst I'm trying to get a simple answer from someone who knows what I'm talking about.

Phil, I don't think people are picking, I think we're trying to double check we're talking about the same things. Engineers are often particularly pedantic because those subtle differences in acronym can make a significant difference to implementation. We often come across managers who try to throw them in to conversations to make themselves sound clever without knowing what they're talking about

[dapinky]

At serious risk of being slated for being i wish to state the following......



....I fully agree with Dico - neither of us have got a clue, so we're keeping out of it


That said, I see the validity of most points made so far, and fully appreciate that Phil has chosen the most suitable thread in which to post his question, so perhaps it can stay here???

I also appreciate that Phil has a 'simple' question and needs a 'simple' answer - however, there is no such thing in uncharted waters, as we are seeing here, and as usual, some answers are more akin to the question than others, and often new thoughts cloud rather than clarify the view - such is life.

Whilst i know little on the subject, i still find it interesting to read all arguements and hope to gain something from whatever end result is reached.....




...okay, carry on....

[GeoffSmith]

Phil, please be assured that what I say is meant to be helpful in trying to help you understand what the issues are to help you work out a way forward. Let's get the non-techncial bits out of the way first:

Server not found

"bogsRus" was a vain effort at humour....... Bogs Are Us....... Plumbers merchants....... .... I give up!

When you first asked ....

I have just fitted a Manual Boost Controller and have some questions for the Guru.
Will the standard ECU automatically keep up with higher boost pressure or will I get incompatibility issues?
Does the MBC do the same job as an Everest chip?
Will bad things happen if I take the car for a run?

.. you were asking a question about MBCs and the standard ECU so this is not as Alan requested, i.e. "Post here any driving impressions, dyno data, links to ElanScan logs etc. relating to the mountain chips." which is why it has been moved.

Do what you want with my posts, it seems the moderators on this forum are more concerned with their own pedantic urges, than keeping the forum free of the junk posts or helping as usual, which is why I regularly get put of having anything to do with this forum.

Alan wanted this topic to be specifically about Mountain performance (in the same way that you have previously requested topics you started remain on topic) and he didn't want it cluttered with other discussions. If you want a chip with higher level of fuel cutoff, you can go to his site and order one. Oh and another thing: Good job I'm not a moderator then....

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now the technical bits:

Phil, you didn't provide enough information for anyone to give you an answer, hence the questions coming back at you. You are doing something different and it's a voyage for discovery for all of us which is why people can't give you a straight answer. It's a bit like going to NASA and asking how much it costs to go to Mars - they need to know how many, how long etc. etc. If this topic is openly discussed and understood, then it may be that an Everest chip is the solution to whatever problems are thrown up, but at the minute, nobody knows or can foresee what your problems are.

I tried to help you by pointing out that an manual boost control (your words in your first post) is a mechanical device which is why you thought Iain had gone off topic. Based on your answers to some of the supplementary questions, suggests that you probably didn't mean an MBC. Unfortunately, engineers like working with facts so it would have helped if you had given a reference to the BC you have (as it would have allowed people to look up the necessary information without bothering you) but without knowing either the specific BC you have or information on how it works, nobody (and that includes ESM) is going to be able to give you a sound engineering answer to your questions.

Since Tony has answered the initial question the follow up is: how can an ESM chip help improve the performance of my car considering my new setup? Which I guess is one for The ESM

With due respect to Tony, he did not answer your question! He told you that the fuel cutoff can be increased and you seem to think this would solve your problem. I pointed out that the fuel cutoff level could only be increased from 0.92 bar to 1 bar and no more than 1 bar with the current pressure sensor. Is 0.92 bar a problem with your BC? Is 1 bar going to help overcome that problem?



The bottom line is that we need to understand how your BC works. It is divorced from the ECU and presumably its sensors so how does your BC determine the level of boost to develop? Once we understand that, we need to know the maximum level of boost you wish to achieve and whether you want the added safety of fuel cutoff and if so, at what level. Give us the information or reference to the BC and there are plenty of people on here who can help you.

[surfboardfiller]

If I go into a whore house and say I want the best - they will know what I mean, if I go to hire a set of golf clubs and say I want the best - they will know what I mean. It's the context, this is ESM Chips - Performance & discussion thread talking about a boost controller.

If I posted on a different thread then I'd expect a different discussion.

I was asking the Guru, I knew he would also be able to put 2+2 together because people like ESM and Tony are clever and they can see where I am going with my question given the context of the thread.

My question was simple and vague as I want to include all parameters and from the answer I can determine the best direction to go in regarding a mountain chip and what it will do for me given my new and complex setup.

[ailwyn]

Phil,

I think there are plenty of people trying to help, some maybe with more than a hint of sarcasm , I also think there is some cross purpose discussion.

My take on what you are asking and the little I know of the subject matter (which may be wrong) can be summed up as:
MBC stops the ECU from controlling the wastegate properly and sets it's own level at which the boost maxes out
FCD is a voltage limiter placed between the MAP and the ECU so that the fuel cut point is never reached...the ECU sees less boost than is actually there after a certain point, e.g. 0.7bar seen, 1.2bar actual
The stock ECU and Everest will fuel based on the MAP signal received and fuel-cut once over boost is detected, both are set below 1bar
If you plan to boost above everest level (0.98bar IIRC) then you will need either an FCD, which would not be recommended as the engine may run lean under boost, or a fully mapped ECU and at this point you would look at getting a better MAP sensor and high flow injectors

A.

[surfboardfiller]

I confused the issue by calling it an MBC when it isn't (although I thought it was called that at the time) its a Solenoid Boost Controller which is manually set. I have sent my apologies to Ian via PM, as I thought a public apology would be off topic and result in me ending being banished to SELOC like Jaco.

Yes, I need a fully mapped ESM Chip that can do stuff:
not sure what but safety fuel cut off of some sort, MAP sensor and high flow injectors sound good but I have no idea. We are inside the engine now and this gets into a whole new area of non expertise, off topicness, and confusing acronyms.