Cars Like Tesla & Ampera

[abmunro]

It makes me laugh...

All these cars run on nice clean electricity and save the enviorment.

How is this electricity made, The great % of it by burning Fossil Fuel just like a combustion engine does.


Are we all forgetting this or have I got it wrong.

Oh and the Nissan Leaf requires new batteries after 5 years, cost about same as new car. Crazy

[rip]

It makes me laugh...
How is this electricity made, The great % of it by burning Fossil Fuel just like a combustion engine does.

Are we all forgetting this or have I got it wrong.

You are spot on but missing an important point.

The setup of an internal combustion engine in a car is not very efficient. The problem is the constantly changing demands we place on it: idle at lights, then accelerate up a hill, then cruise at speed. A car is designed to cope well in all circumstances such as this and as a result will have been compromised enormously in terms of economy.

A power station is optimised to run within a narrow band of operation. Outside of these ideal conditions, it does not perform very well. For this reason, it is undesirable to turn down the output overnight so an effort is made to use the extra powere at quiet times, such as overnight. This is why overnight storage heating & cheap night-time electricity was introduced. Another alternative is to use the excess power to store energy in other ways, such as pumping water into a high reservoir so it can be released to power another generator at busier times.

You are then left with the issue of storing charge & converting electrical to kinetic energy. An electric motor is much more able to run efficiently at a wide range of speeds & this is the important factor which makes the system work.

[Stef]

Wow. Fountain of knowledge! Thanks Rip!

Have always had the same opinion as abmunro but can now understand the efficiencies that could argue an electric car.

Why isn't this informed more widely to help people like us understand this benefit better and thus support electric motors more?!

Still have the big debate on the battery production and frequent disposal energy and pollutant inefficiencies though.

[epipete]

The major problem is battery technology, I well recall being told by a couple of military telecom engineers some 30yrs back that the radios could be condensed to the size of a fag packet but the poor squaddie would still go into battle with a suitcase of batteries to support it, well no doubt things are somewhat advanced now but by & large it's still the same issues!

Most of us have had a troublesome middle east as the backdrop to our lives, a reduction in oil dependency would be a good thing, to coincide with Scottish Independence just so long as I can keep filling the Lotus!

[rip]

Wow. Fountain of knowledge! Thanks Rip!

Have always had the same opinion as abmunro but can now understand the efficiencies that could argue an electric car.

Why isn't this informed more widely to help people like us understand this benefit better and thus support electric motors more?!

Maybe because if they made a TV documentary about it, most would switch it off?

I thought my A level in physics may come in useful for something one day.
I learned zero from over a year at Uni doing mechanical engineering though. That was the biggest waste of time ever & I have no regrets walking away from it.

Still have the big debate on the battery production and frequent disposal energy and pollutant inefficiencies though.

They also cost a bomb to replace at their end of their working life...which is nowhere near as long as an engine can go between rebuilds.

[lotos]

First, with an electric car you're not lugging the power plant around with you, so although batteries aren't weightless you're saving over a hybrid electric solution like the Volt or Fisker Karma.

Second, the net pollution from a power plant, even coal, is much less per mile versus an onboard car engine. And if you're lucky enough to have nuclear, wind or other power, it's obscenely cleaner to run an electric car.

Finally, the warranty on the Leaf's battery is 96 months or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. People said that same line about hybrids and mine is currently 6 years old with better-than-new fuel economy.

Hope that helps. I am getting a new car soon and was about to buy the Lexus CT200h hybrid but may wait 1 year and see what electrics hit the market. Even the Tesla Model S is appealing to me.

[chris.t]

hydrogen - it's got to be.

[bobbrown]

So how do you produce the hydrogen it is now available for free, the use fossil fuels in it's production seems a bit counter productive and having stripped the hydrogen out of a hydrocarbon what do you do with all the CO2?
One thing that all ways stands out in my mind is the cost of production, how much energy does it take to produce a car any car as that bit always gets left out.
Bit like the energy cost to produce a wind turbine or a power station and how long does it take before it is payed that back if in fact it ever does.

[nitroman]

hydrogen - it's got to be.

For America, the obvious answer is LNG. We have the world's #1 reserves. When it comes to LNG, we are the Saudi 's. Way back in the '70s & '80s almost EVERY government vehicle was powered by it. If that technology existed then can you even imagine what the technology must be like now?

CORRECTION: Everything I said above is true except I meant & should have said CNG (condensed), not LNG (liquified)... natural gas. If petrol stopped pumping tomorrow you would suddenly see the will and economic incentive to convert both our cars and our fuel-infrastructure (albeit this time it would be a near-unanimous all-American infrastructure!).

[lotos]

I can't get behind CNG because of fracking. A reduction in emissions is great but the means to get the stuff is just plain nasty and harmful. Article "The Big Fracking Bubble"

Meanwhile, electricity can be produced in any number of ways and batteries just get cheaper, lighter, and better.

[nitroman]

I'm in favor of outlawing fracking COMPLETELY. But fracking is not something exclusive to CNG, in fact fracking is used far more frequently in milking "used up" old liquid crude oil fields than in CNG drilling. Anytime you have a Rolling Stone Magazine article whose opening paragraph states "We met with the right-wing billionaire sipping $400 French Bordeaux..." you know the guy is not about to be framed as Jesus Christ!

President Obama in his energy speech earlier this year stated that America has at least a 100-year supply of CNG, and I've seen truly knowledgeable industry experts estimate it at 300-years. Fracking is a complete red herring anyway because it's just not necessary to remove generation upon generation upon generation of CNG from the ground. Fracking was actually developed to milk the last possible production from previously spent liquid fossil fuel reservoirs which needed a way to lower the viscosity of the heavy crude left (so it could be pumped) and/or fracture the rock to get to the small pockets of petroleum still left.

CNG is also MUCH cleaner when comparing the amount of carbon released VS the energy generated by burning it. There are either 3 or 6 times fewer CO2 molecules released into the atmosphere, I forget which from my chemistry classes.

In summary, I'd outlaw fracking, outlaw the exportation of CNG mined in America (Why give away a finite resource? Besides, how hard can it be to have CNG legally reclassified as a strategic resource?), plus tax the bejesus out of fossil fuels IMPORTED INTO the United States. Most importantly, I’d do it in a clear & gradual progression which businesses & accountants crave, which will give time for industry to find & mine indigenous CNG, as well as for automobile makers to design & offer CNG-burning vehicles.

Thinking even further, I’d incentivise the building of nuclear power plants like France has done, as the US already generates 20% of our electric-grid power hydroelectrically, so we’ve already tapped that emission-free source as much as we can. That leaves nuclear power as the next most environmentally friendly option. Unless we want electric cars to be a farce, merely “feel good” pablum for the masses, then we need to get away from burning coal and liquid petroleum as the #1 & #2 sources of power for our electric grid!!!

[lotos]

I'd outlaw fracking, outlaw the exportation of CNG mined in America (Why give away a finite resource? Besides, how hard can it be to have CNG legally reclassified as a strategic resource?), plus tax the bejesus out of fossil fuels IMPORTED INTO the United States. Most importantly, I’d do it in a clear & gradual progression which businesses & accountants crave, which will give time for industry to find & mine indigenous CNG, as well as for automobile makers to design & offer CNG-burning vehicles.

Thinking even further, I’d incentivise the building of nuclear power plants like France has done, as the US already generates 20% of our electric-grid power hydroelectrically, so we’ve already tapped that emission-free source as much as we can. That leaves nuclear power as the next most environmentally friendly option. Unless we want electric cars to be a farce, merely “feel good” pablum for the masses, then we need to get away from burning coal and liquid petroleum as the #1 & #2 sources of power for our electric grid!!!

Holy @#$%. We seem to completely agree on something Bound to happen one of these years

[tigerdog]

...

Holy @#$%. We seem to completely agree on something Bound to happen one of these years

Just one more reason why I like LEC!

[nitroman]

Holy @#$%. We seem to completely agree on something Bound to happen one of these years

Would you likewise be shocked that I think we should have universal health care?

Basically, I just want the right to carry a gun and defend myself from aggressors. That's pretty much "it." Every person should have the right NOT to feel like a gazzele even though there be wolves about.

As you may have heard in the news, Florida has a "stand your ground" law, which I like. I grew up with a gun always in the house, which us boys were never to touch, even if someone was breaking in (cuz who would kill an unarmed child, right?). Now, I have no love of the POPO, because, unfortunately, we have become a POPO state with too many laws, instead of (haha), "the land of the free." Put simply, I agree with the adage, "no victim, no crime."

My family moved to Florida from Colorado in 1958 when my grandfather (a mechanical engineer) was transfered by International Harvester Corp. He had a major hand in designing IHC's first post-war tractor. Das family originally came to the USA from Inniskillin, Ireland in 1877, and spent a short time in Southern Illinois before moving on to far Western Nebraska (owned a farm in kearney). When the depression came they moved to Colorado to find work. Me pa was in the military for 31 years (army, navy, coast guard). Even beyond that, I know well what it's like to be on or near navy bases. This may shock civilians, but the actions of a military child are reflected directly back to the parent, and can easily keep them from advancement. There's really no way for me to impress what that means to a child, unless you lived it. My daughter wasn't born until well after I was out, thank God. Although I will always support individual soldiers, I think we should have NEVER set foot in Iraq (either time) or except for the initial 2001 effort with the Northern Alliance, Afghanistan. Vietnam we should have left to the French to decide. Even Korea (where my dad was in 1951) wasn't nearly worth over 50k American lives. That brings us to WW2, which America had NO CHOICE OVER; attacked by Japan and 4 days later, declared war on by Germany! I'm sure it was the most glorious week of Churchill's life.

WW1 - No. Our involvement was driven by investors with capital in British stocks. Truly.
American dead 117,465. Wounded 205,690. I hope the well to do were happy.

Spanish American War: Well, gain for loss this was the 'best' war in our history, and the only one started not by the president, but the Secretary of War (same as Secretary of Defense today), as he declined to wake the president at 10PM when word came that the Spanish fleet was hoisting the Blue Peter & steaming out of Manila harbor. Instead, SOW "Teddy" immediately cabled the simplest of messages; "ATTACK." Maybe this war was so long ago that I simply can't relate, but the reality is we didn't fall into a never-ending quagmire, and so, in retrospect, it seems if not harmless, not too harmful.

Anything beyond that my family didn't even live in this country.

[madbilly]

We could build some of these then we could choose between
- electricity to charge your batteries
- hydrogen (either by using electrolysis to split water, or the high temperature method) for your internal combustion engine or fuel cell
- clean water (desalination), very scarce in most of the world

There are other applications but these are the headliners.