5 degree chassis v's 2.5 degree chassis

[Andy_J]

Need a quick bit of advice on a chassis swap.

If i am doing a chassis swap, 2.5 degree to 5 degree lift angle, which parts of the rear suspension can be re-used. I know the manual states you need spacers and new wishbones, but I didnt think there was a difference between the lower wishones? Are the upper wishbones really different?

NB this is a swap fo a newer style chassis for an older style chassis

[Brit-Car-Nut]

If you are swapping a 5 degree chassis with a 2.5 degree chassis, the difference is in the rear support strut #55, the thick, triangular spacer #40, the bushing #34 and bolt #35.

See illustration http://www.lotuselanm100usa.info/lec/rear-susp.jpg

#40 is up alongside the S2 upper arm but works correctly with an SE arm.

Look at http://www.lotuselanm100usa.info/lec/rear-susp2.jpg and http://www.lotuselanm100usa.info/lec/rear-susp3.jpg for the part numbers.

Sorry for the twisted page, but that is how it is in the PDF parts guide.

The kit: A100D0093S is obsolete and would contain the wishbones too.

This will get the parts aligned again.

[Andy_J]

I am after information on swapping the other way.

I am planning on putting an old style chassis (5 degree) on to a car that originally had a new style chassis (2.5 Degree)

Can it be done without problems with the upper wishbones?

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Just remove and replace the newer parts with the old parts. I would love to have the 2 1/5 degree supports and bushings.

All of the other components work with either design.

[Specky]

As a layman answer... Yep it's straight forward.

But be aware of the VIN, I'm not so hot on this, but I believe your in the realms of "ringing" the car. That said, owners of original Elans have been swapping out the backbone chassis for years.

I don't think you can just grind off the old one and overstamp the new one. Like I said, I don't know the ins and outs.

Don't forget to replace the two front brake lines, IMHO it's the hardest job on the Elan, and to that end only a few people have undertaken it.

TTFN

[Andy_J]

Thanks guys. Sounds like I will have to hunt through all the nuts, bolts, washers and other buts for the rear top link spacers and bolts.

Interesting point about what vin number should go on the car, I also need to think about how to mark one of the chassis as scrapped so it does not need sorned every year

[owentec]

Be warned that if you are replacing the chassis of a vehicle with a secondhand one, you almost certainly need to put it through an SVA test and you'll probably end up with a 'Q' prefix registration number.

[dapinky]

The full answer would take me far too long to write, but as a basic answer there are a number of options on registering the vehicle.....

The totally official (and therefore only really legal) answer is that by swapping the chassis for a second-hand one, the vehicle can either take the identity of the 'new' chassis, or needs to be submitted for an ESVA/SVA test and a new number would then be allocated (possibly age related, possibly a 'Q' plate - it all depends on what else is new, and what else is second-hand, and what is original, and what isn't!).

As a basic premise, a vehicle's identity is based on the chassis (or monocoque body) - so any change will affect the identity.

In order to use the registration number of the 'new' chassis, you would also need to demonstrate that at least 2 other major components came from that vehicle as well, otherwise it's ESVA time again! (or if they are exchange/service items, they can be new).

So, on first look it may seem that your 'old' car is getting a new chassis, but in law, it's the other chassis that is getting different body and running gear

It all becomes a bit of a nightmare, and i have spent a lot of hours in the past trying to work out which bits of which cars (well, Land Rovers, actually) belonged to which - a giant Mechano set in a farmyard, but that's another story....


.....of course, if there were no actual number stamped into the chassis it would be impossible for anyone to ever establish that the chassis belongs to a different registration number, especially since they were all made at roughly the same time and are age related.

Either way, the Police wouldn't be interested in 'ringing' the vehicle as it is clearly not for any dishonest intent (theft/handling/fraud) as you own all of the bits - it is purely a matter of keeping the DVLA/VOSA happy, and therefore doing it they way they want.

[Andy_J]

Thanks dapinky for the quick legal summary. Lots of thinking to do as the un damaged chassis has 161K miles on it where as the damaged chassis has less than 100K.

At least I have the V5, speedo and registartion numbers for the undamaged chassis, so if I go with the chassis with new body tub and running gear I will not be clocking the car or changing its reg number

[Simon_P]

There is a lot written here and most of it is correct, but beware! don't assume and don't dig yourself a hole.

In the UK a vehicle is identified by its VIN/Chassis/Unit ....etc number any one of these depending on the type of construction, when it was constructed what they called it etc.

Modern cars are identified by VIN number. The Elan is identified by its VIN number. On an Elan the VIN plate is on that laminated piece of paper at the front, it is also repeated on the chassis. When you change the chassis you have not changed the VIN number. Remember VIN number not chassis number!

If you wish to create yourself a lot of problems tell the DVLA that you have changed the chassis and give them a new number. You are effectively asking to have your car identified by some arbritrary number that you are calling the chassis number, rather than the VIN number that it left the factory with. Now you have a car of unknown origin - why would you want to do that? There is only one box on the V5 for one number the VIN number! you can't have a chassis number as well so you wouldn't need to tell the DVLA if you change the chassis. As mentioned there is a points system for various parts of the car when confirming its identity. You wouldn't tell the DVLA if you changed the suspension or gearbox would you - they don't have a box for that!

If you have a second hand chassis remove the VIN number from it to avoid confusion - that is not your vehicle and you are not entitled to that identity.

Dont stamp the new chassis with the VIN number - there are laws againt that!

Document what you do and be honest with future owners.

[Simon_P]

To keep the discussion straight.....

The totally official (and therefore only really legal) answer is that by swapping the chassis for a second-hand one, the vehicle can either take the identity of the 'new' chassis, or needs to be submitted for an ESVA/SVA test and a new number would then be allocated (possibly age related, possibly a 'Q' plate - it all depends on what else is new, and what else is second-hand, and what is original, and what isn't!).

I don't believe that there is any entitlement to the identity of the new chassis. There are cases where the chassis has been resurected from another car that still exists and similarly for cars that no longer exist, and no right to the identity exists.

Changing the chassis and claiming the new identity is called ringing!

As a basic premise, a vehicle's identity is based on the chassis (or monocoque body) - so any change will affect the identity.

A Vehicles identity is linked to one of... VIN/Chassis/Frame no. (or monocoque body, or unit number etc) Box E on the V5
People commonly refer to this chassis number which is where the confusion arrises. The Elan is identified by its VIN and not its chassis number so there is no change in identity, neither is there anywhere to record the chassis number on the V5 because it is occupied by the VIN number.

I'm not an expert but I have had recent dealings with the DVLA - The situation is the same as the original elan and when people have dug themselves a big enough hole club Lotus or Lotus cars have letters that extract them from it!

[RayD]

Out of interest when I rebuilt my 1972 Elan Plus 2 135/5 I sold the original chassis privately without giving a second thought to whether or not it had any of my cars numbers on it.

Ray

[Simon_P]

At least I have the V5, speedo and registartion numbers for the undamaged chassis, so if I go with the chassis with new body tub and running gear I will not be clocking the car or changing its reg number

.... You will, and you will be breaking several laws

Ray D,
with old elans it is musical chairs with engines and chassis - how many have matching numbers? so much so taht you expect the chassis to have been replaced and the engine swapped.

[dapinky]

.... You will, and you will be breaking several laws

Hi Simon,

I'm a bit intregued by this one? What laws and how??

Also, can you please point me towards your source of information on the fact that the laminated sticker inside the clamshell which bears a printed version of the VIN is the bit of the car which denotes its identity? It would appear from what you say that the identity of a vehicle is denoted by the clamshell? surely if this were the case then every elan which has a front end shunt and a different clamshell fitted would have to change identity?

[Brit-Car-Nut]

This has become more and more strange to me.

In the US, you are permitted to replace ANY part that was originally available as a factory repair part with no other issues at all. Used or New doesn't matter. The car's identity is the VIN which is the set of numbers found somewhere on the body/chassis AND declared on the vehicle's TITLE. On the M100, it is the formal paper sticker under the bonnet. Lotus offers replacement stickers for cars that have been in a wreck and the original VIN is damaged or the panel retaining the VIN has to be replaced.

The small stickers on every body panel is part of International Law that tries to keep track of parts that might be offered after a vehicle is stolen, ie from a "Chop Shop".

This is the certificate I got for the S Matthews car:



Now, the car's parts can be used to fix any other car. I will have a very hard time getting the VIN re-issued, but that is another set of problems I will face when the car is repaired.

In the US, window glass is etched with the VIN, the differential is STAMPED with the VIN and those numbers are everywhere. You can STILL use parts from other cars that have been LEGALLY broken for parts. You need to turn the original title in to your Department of Motor Vehicles which will "declare" the car as having been destroyed. Every salvage yard has to do that to legally sell their parts. At that point every piece is legally allowed to be sold to repair another vehicle.

It is a shame that Lotus no longer offers the small labels for the body panels. I tried to get replacements for the sections I replaced on my NMY project. They told me that the printer to make those has been "lost". I will have replacements made so my car is as close to original as possible and I will keep all of my receipts for the parts I purchased to make the repairs.

So, at least in the US, you can legally buy ANY parts from another car and fix your car as long as the donor car hasn't been reported to be stolen. I think it would take an overzealous inspector to try to say a chassis or other major panel that was replaced due to an accident or structural integrity issues constitutes changing the original car's identity and I doubt that the final authority would rule in that direction.

The entire "breaker yard" industry would have to cease operation. I don't think Steve Strange would like that very much...

[Simon_P]

.... You will, and you will be breaking several laws

Hi Simon,

I'm a bit intregued by this one? What laws and how??

Also, can you please point me towards your source of information on the fact that the laminated sticker inside the clamshell which bears a printed version of the VIN is the bit of the car which denotes its identity? It would appear from what you say that the identity of a vehicle is denoted by the clamshell? surely if this were the case then every elan which has a front end shunt and a different clamshell fitted would have to change identity?

The laws relating to vehicle registration

I quite clearly (and at some length) have not stated that the sticker, or for that matter, the thing it is stuck on define the vehicle identity. I have said that an elan is identified by its VIN number and not it's chassis number.

John,

It is pretty much the same here except that our registration document V5 does not give title it gives legal responsibility.
The post above suggest that changing the chassis is sufficient to change the identity. I do not think it is!

Simon

[dapinky]

Andy,

I stand by by opening statement - "The full answer would take me far too long to write, but as a basic answer there are a number of options on registering the vehicle....."

VIN's were introduced in 1954, but were not 'standardised' to the current 17 digit format until 1981 - however, the word 'standardised' is a bit of a misnomer, as the whole system was developed by our colonial cousins, but we British decided to say 'Sod you' to them, and so the terms 'chassis number' continued to be used in the UK.

Nowadays, we do use 'VINs', but some UK law still refers to Chassis numbers......

...the Vehicle Registration and Licensing Legislation was written in 1971 and is still current (albeit with certain additions and ammendments to incorporate things like VIN), but still refers to 'chassis number'.

Now, the important thing to consider is that a 'chassis number' is NOT the same a a number stamped into the chassis.........

For the first term, think 'Vehicle number'

Now, when cars first came out 'in bulk' they were given sequential numbers at the factory (mostly) - and the easiest place to put it was on the chassis - hence the terminology - technically, anything made by British Leyland has no chassis number - it has a 'build number' which is stamped into an aluminium plate inside the front nearside wing.

this is easily removed (2 pop rivets), and that is that - easily mis-identified!

As such, each model has the build number stamped into the bodywork in different locations (and no, i wont tell you on an open forum where each one is!).

Again, not foolproof as the metalwork can be cut out and replaced - but better than a plastic sticker inside the engine bay!

So, onto the elan -
The number on the plastic sticker is the VIN - we all agree on that!
The number on the Chassis in also the VIN, which although it is on the chassis, is not a chassis number......

UK Law refers to a mixture of Chassis Number and VIN depending on what you are doing.

In relation to retention of identity (and i am limiting this bit to vehicles of the age we are talking about, being worked on under todays regulations) - it is all down to the number of components used from each vehicle, and what you can legitimately claim to be 'replacement service items' as to which identity you use.


Again, I stand by my statement that it is possible to do it all legally and without breaking any laws

[Simon_P]

Again, I stand by my statement that it is possible to do it all legally and without breaking any laws

Nobody said that it wasn't!

But if you read your statement that I have quoted above, it conflicts with the regulations, and also the rest of uour detailed and informative posts.

Andy's understanding from your post (quoted above) would not comply with the regulations. You cannot take the chassis from vehicle A, put it on vehicle B, and transfer vehicle B's identity.
a. the majority of the vehicle is still vehicle A
b. you have not transfered sufficient "points" from vechicle B to claim or maintain it's identity.


Simon

[dapinky]

Simon,

I'm not sure what points either of us are trying to win here

All I'm trying to say is that do not confuse a chassis, chassis number, VIN, body number or anything else......

in your example above, using a chassis from veh A, and a body from veh B, neither identity could be retained and you will end up with a body on a chassis, not a car. It would need other components from either vehicle (or new service items to the same spec) to make a total of points to use the identity(ies) and avoid a 'Q' plate, an 'age related' number, or a 'new' number (which wouldn't happen as the car would require type approval and would fail 'new' regs).

Given enough parts from either donor, then either identity could be claimed, legally.

Also, I am keeping this to the relevant Licensing regs, as 'ringing' doesnt come into it as Andy owns both vehicles concerned, so their is no 'dishonest appropriation' involved.

[Simon_P]

I'm not sure what points either of us are trying to win here

None - Just trying to provide clear information to help others - as I believe you are.

All I'm trying to say is that do not confuse a chassis, chassis number, VIN, body number or anything else......

That was the point from your earlier post that I was trying to correct as it had been taken literally - we agree 100%

in your example above, using a chassis from veh A, and a body from veh B

That isn't what I wrote!

Also, I am keeping this to the relevant Licensing regs, as 'ringing' doesnt come into it as Andy owns both vehicles concerned, so their is no 'dishonest appropriation' involved.

You are quite correct - just trying to indicate a situation come sale time - all hypothetical, can't think of simpler way to describe a vehicle that has been ammended in such a way.

Simon

Interestingly (?!) the Law requires the VIN to be stamped on the rear offside suspension upright. If you change the chassis the old VIN is incorrect, stamping it with the correct VIN would be fraudulent, and the DVLA do not have the capability to record another number ....what should one do?