To or Not to TurboSmart FCD

[m100sandra]

Since having the Piper 2.25 and Everast fitted i hit the fuel cut last night for the 1st time i thought i had got away with it, but maybe with it been a bit cooler last night its just hit it.....
Whats the thinking of using a Fuel cut defender i was maybe thinking of using a TurboSmart fcd which is adjustable so maybe keeping some safety margin & checking the afr's etc on a dyno, of maybe better still having a afr gauge installed?
The TurboSmart FCD is here http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/shop/ts0 ... rrency=GBP

Sandra

[theelanman]

have you got a mountain chip?.....
this will get rid of the need for this.......

IIRC manual FCD and MBC's are not well liked due to their nature of ...well.....being manual
its up to you to turn up or down but with the chip this is done automatically in the blink of an eye.....
certainly MBC give you the chance to turn your engine up ....but then probably blow it.....

just a thought......

[rip]

have you got a mountain chip?.....
this will get rid of the need for this.......

You a bit sleepy today, G?

Since having the Piper 2.25 and Everast fitted

Everest has a marginally higher fuel cut than the stock program but the margin between target boost & overboost is so small that it will be difficult to detect, even with the boost gauge.
There is a small chance that the increased overboost level will be sufficient, but it is extremely unlikely.

The overboost fuel cut is there as a safety measure: above this the injectors cannot supply enough fuel to provide a rich enough charge to prevent detonation.

However:

Unless you drive around at high revs with you foot stuck to the floor (like you would on a track day), will internal engine temperatures really get high enough to do any damage? Some would argue that they wouldn't.

It is nothing you cannot manage with your right foot.

[theelanman]

have you got a mountain chip?.....
this will get rid of the need for this.......

You a bit sleepy today, G?

Since having the Piper 2.25 and Everast fitted

YUP......3hrs kip last night.....15 hours days........
could sleep for a week.......roll on saturday....

[m100sandra]

So if the over boost to the fuel cut is marginal....say maybe 1 bar max and the TurboSmart FCD can be set at 1 Bar or just a little over. & if it was confirmed that the fueling was OK (or AFR gauge showed all OK) it should be OK taking into account its only over boosting when its a colder day
As mentioned it was the 1st time last night that i have hit the fuel cut so i am guessing it was the cooler temperatures letting the boost rise, so it must be marginal.

Sandra

[dapinky]

Sandra, has your wastegate been ported?

Is it operating 100% correctly with no slight sticking ?

Before spending 100 quid on something which *could* harm the engine, I'd see if the overboost can be prevented. (of course, if the intention is to maximise boost over and above what the Everest gives for more power, then I'll shut up!)

[m100sandra]

Sandra, has your wastegate been ported?

Is it operating 100% correctly with no slight sticking ?

Before spending 100 quid on something which *could* harm the engine, I'd see if the overboost can be prevented. (of course, if the intention is to maximise boost over and above what the Everest gives for more power, then I'll shut up!)

No i havnt had the wastegate ported.... but thinking if it isnt creeping much but just a slight over-boost the TurboSmart FCD might be the answer with a few extra BHP dopped in for good measure (providing the fueling is ok) I'm no girl racer and it wont be going on the track, just the odd bit off foot down for fun
Or am i missing somthing Thinking why cant the chip be made to do somthing similar

[nitroman]

Didda ya notice this little diddy I'd put up sale? viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20730

Patrick King made it (this was the 2nd one he made for me after I sold one along with an earlier Elan) and I used his creations on 3 different Elans over 11 years. It'll plug right in without you having to wire & solder anything, plus it won't make you go through a tedious adjustment regimen (although it is adjustable if you pop the cover).

If Shania Twain was describing it she might say, "It's what a woman wants," or something. Truly (to thine own self be true), have you ever seen a design more brilliantly executed? Sure, you've seen iPads & iPhones, but what slapshod tripe are those? This is bespoke. B-e-s-p-o-k-e.

BTW the best price on shipping a small package to the UK is $16 and arrives in 5 days. Yep, I've been through similar situations in my illustrious past. I said illustrious.

[ccb056]

Sandra, has your wastegate been ported?

Is it operating 100% correctly with no slight sticking ?

Before spending 100 quid on something which *could* harm the engine, I'd see if the overboost can be prevented. (of course, if the intention is to maximise boost over and above what the Everest gives for more power, then I'll shut up!)

Fuel cutoff is doing it's job and protecting the engine. I'd port the wastegate and keep the engine safe.

[GeoffSmith]

The fuel cutoff is deliberately set at just below 1 bar..... this is the maximum the standard MAP sensor can measure, so if you fool it in any way, you are running the risk of a single failure taking you into the realms of the unknown. Even the more sophisticated FCDs (such as the TurboSmart one) will not do a lot for your money as you can only increase the level from 0.92bar to 1bar maximum before you remove the fuel cutoff protection completely.

Shortly after I bought my car, the wastegate stuck and I discovered it had an MBC and had been chipped to inhibit the fuel cutoff: Great fun and massive tyre smoking time in second but something I was not prepared to live with so I went for the optimum solution by removing the MBC and fitting an Everest. After fitting a Peco, I got overboost and fuel cutoff so ported the wastegate to better match it with the differential pressure across the turbo.

It's well worth reading the Wiki.

[ailwyn]

IIRC

The elysium chip boosts over 1 bar under hard acceleration.
Backpressure caused by the stock exhaust is removed when you change it, this allows the turbo to spin more freely and the wategate cannot shift enough of the pressure to control the boost, i.e. your turbo is more efficient, your wastegate no longer matches, hence the need for porting with a larger exhaust.
The main problem with MBC/FCD combinations was not their use, but the disparity between actual boost and what the ECU sees via the map and therefore fuels for. I think typically FCDs would only allow the ECU to see 0.65 bar boost, where as the engine could be running at up to double that.

Personally I'd port the wastegate as a first step, then if the overboost is not cured maybe talk to Alan about upgrading the everest to an elysium if he's still doing them.

If you do fit an FCD, set it to 0.98 bar to match the everest fuel cut but allow the ECU to do as good a job of fuelling as it can.

Ailwyn

[m100sandra]

Thanks for all the replys, It seems that ill have to sweet talk my other half to take the turbo off

BUT: would the TurboSmart FCD work/fit on the Elan, i get confused with the 5V bit etc, reading some of the older posts i see 4.5V mentioned but the TurboSmat info mentions 5V
Link with the TurboSmart info below in the hope some can tell me

http://www.turbosmart.com.au/wp-content ... 1/FCD2.pdf

I just like the idea of keeping a fuel cut which this seems to do?

Thanks
Sandra

[ailwyn]

What keeps a fuel cut? An FCD is a Fuel Cut Defeater, only way to keep the fuel Cut is not fit an FCD.

[ailwyn]

have read the pdf and see what you are getting at, but I think the purpose of the latch and release is if you fit a boost controller and separate waste gate where you want to boost over the stock maximum, but under some sort of control. Point here is you are trying to manage uncontrolled boost by fooling the ECU. Once you are overboosting the pressure will keep building until you either take your foot off the pedal or you max out the turbo's capacity. If you use a latch and release you will do one of two things:
1. Delay a few seconds before the FCD releases and the fuel Cut hits
2. Boost to a point where the MAP output is saturated and you never hit the release voltage.

Either way it would seem to be pointless as a safety net.

Suggest you either use it to fully defeat the fuel cut or don't bother.

Port the wastegate would be the best option and will probably cure the problem.

[nitroman]

Perhaps the ultimate bespoke Elan FCD, the BBR unit.

[ESM]

I think it's a very bad idea to fit an FCD with an Everest. If you do use an FCD with a chip then the likely result is that the feedback loop gets a falsely low boost value and keeps trying to increase the boost (with no apparent result as far as the ECM is concerned, since the reading's clipped, but plenty of actual effect to the manifold pressure)- the result is effectively uncontrolled boost and under-fuelling. Really not good. The ECU will detect knock and pull back the timing but it'll still likely run lean.

The easiest way to fix overboost (I've heard of anyway) is to put a constriction in the exhaust - perhaps fit a gasket with a 2" opening at one of the exhaust unions. The best way is to open up the wastegate as mentioned above.

I could also do you a chip with the fuel cut removed if you really want one.

Make sure the problem isn't simply a sticky wastegate - 2.25" exhausts don't usually get creep, I had a 2.25" piper myself at one point. Usually it's the 2.5" variety that suffer.

[John_W]

Since having the Piper 2.25 and Everast fitted i hit the fuel cut last night for the 1st time i thought i had got away with it, but maybe with it been a bit cooler last night its just hit it.....
Whats the thinking of using a Fuel cut defender i was maybe thinking of using a TurboSmart fcd which is adjustable so maybe keeping some safety margin & checking the afr's etc on a dyno, of maybe better still having a afr gauge installed?
The TurboSmart FCD is here http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/shop/ts0 ... rrency=GBP

Sandra

No. Never. Not at all. Bad idea. Completely opposing concepts between the Everest chip and a FCD.

[tigerdog]

BUT: would the TurboSmart FCD work/fit on the Elan, i get confused with the 5V bit etc, reading some of the older posts i see 4.5V mentioned but the TurboSmat info mentions 5V ...
I just like the idea of keeping a fuel cut which this seems to do?

The "5V bit" comes from the signal fed by the ECU to the MAP sensor. ECU sends a carefully regulated 5V to the sensor. Sensor reduces this voltage in proportion to the vacuum or pressure in the manifold, up to 1 Bar, wherein the full 5V goes back to the ECU. The native chip looks at this number and cuts the fuel supply when the boost (and corresponding voltage) gets too high.

The device on the link "alters the output of a factory 5V MAP Sensor". This means that it is sending false information to the ECU. Full stop. If it's a very smart design, it will send the normal output right up to the level of the fuel cut, then clamp the voltage just below, at which the ECU thinks the pressure is "x" when in fact it is "X+some unknown factor". An AFR will tell you how wrong it gets but it can't fix it. If the device is very very smart, it will allow you to decide how long to let the silliness go on (is that the "release" trim pot?) before causing the fuel to cut. It cannot allow a preset above the 5V max output of the sensor in any case.

If the device on the link is not terribly smart, it might just reduce the output voltage across a wide range of operation, causing the ECU to underfuel and the engine to run lean.

I agree with the other posters - let the Everest do its thing and port the wastegate so it can do it properly. If you really feel the need to boost above 1 Bar, search the forum on 3 Bar sensors, 550cc injectors, Garrett turbos and replacement ECUs. It's a long, slippery slope.

One alternative would be to find one of Marie's Garrett turbo conversion kits but put on the GT2554R ball-bearing turbo along with the Mountain chip. Differente wastegate design doesn't need porting and the ball bearing turbo should spool even faster than the stock one. The 2554 is approximately the same size as stock, too, so you won't get the lag induced by a bigger turbo. After that, you could move on to...

... nah, port the wastegate and be done with it!

[HJ2]

I was were you are now a couple of years ago. My stock exhaust needed replacement and i ordered a Cybox (PECO) Piper wasn't available then unfortunately.
The new pipe is 2.25" and i knocked the pre cat empty at the same time. So i ended up with boost creep,but only just a tad. I also had hope that an Everest would just cure it, but no... Then thougt i'd live with it, till temperatures dropped as summer went by. Then i decided hat porting was the only option as the car was barely drivable. It was a lot of work, but it cured all the problems!

Time to put your hubby to wok then

[nitroman]

I agree that porting the wastegate is the "final" solution. I'd always intended to do so myself, and even had a spare wastegate casting machined to 21mm. I just never got around to installing it and ended up passing it on to "Elanlover" in Canada. Once he installs it perhaps you can buy his old one from him, which would allow you to continue driving your car whilst you take the part to a machine-shop to drill-out the wastegate from the stock 17mm to 21mm. That would be your best, although slightly expensive solution.

That said, I did get away with driving my 3 Elans for 11 years with an FCD. There was one guy in Colorado who burned up his engine after 3 years using an FCD. I'd say an FCD is only a viable choice if you are right at the tipping-point, not if you plan to exceed it grossly. If money is no object, port the wastegate.