Brake Pads

[Rusty Wishbone]

I'm going to defer upgrading the brakes on my Elan for a year or so. There are too many other things to do first. So I'm just planning to do some refurbishment of the OEM brakes, replacing the sliders, installing braided hoses, changing the piston seals. The front brakes have previously been upgraded with EBC discs and Greenstuff pads, but the rear brakes are standard.

So my question is what pads to install.

Looking through lots of past comments, the Ferodo DS2500s are very highly rated, but according to the Camskill website: "Customers should be aware that these are a Racing Compound and as such that we do not warranty these pads for use on the road. In otherwords it is YOUR risk to use on the road." How should I react to this? I don't want to compromise safety in any way, but if they are designed for track use, surely they are completely safe for road use.

For the rear brakes, there doesn't seem to be a Ferodo size that fits, so I shall probably buy the EBC Ultimax, unless anyone thinks that there is something much better out there.

[Fredjohn]

The point with race pads is that they work more efficiently at very high temperatures, much higher than you would generally get on the road even with spirited driving, and do not work so well at lower temperatures.

Having said that the Ferodo DS2500, although a race pad, also works very well at lower "road" temperatures. I bought some off ebay for about £12 and found them perfectly ok. Quite a few people on LEC use them with no issues.

Follow this link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferodo-Perfor ... 232acc44ad

Or you can have mine as I have fitted a Wilwood set up at the front. Drop me a pm if interested.

No doubt someone will recommend a rear pad, but I have EBC Greenstuff and find them OK

[dapinky]

On the rear I currently use Mintex (cos that's what i could find for a good price when i wanted some!).....

....the whole point being that the rear brakes do so little (in comparison to the front), that the pad choice is of less importance.

Obviously, you will want to maintain as close a balace between the front and rear as you can (relevant to OE specs), so if you uprate the front ones, you can get away with any of the recognised makes on the rear.

Interestingly, there is only a small selection available in the UK, but loads in USA - this is down to the type approval on them, and nowt to do with how good they are. For EU road use they need to be approved as such, and only a few manufacturers bothered due to the small usage of the pad size here - in the USA other cars use them, and there is a bigger market, so more choice.

[tb10]

Having said that the Ferodo DS2500, although a race pad, also works very well at lower "road" temperatures. I bought some off ebay for about £12 and found them perfectly ok. Quite a few people on LEC use them with no issues.

Follow this link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferodo-Perfor ... 232acc44ad

They totally changed the braking on my standard NA Brakes.

regards

John

[Jeemy]

I have Mintex 1144s for my Hi-Spec, recommended by Bob Brown. Possibly because they were the most expensive he did, I don't know. I've not fitted the brakes yet so cannot say more.

General forum wisdom at the time, from boy racers and the like, seemed to be that Green Stuff weren't as good as they were meant to be, 1144 were great on fast road, and no use for real track although OK for amateur events and DS2500 was a starter track pad, and not even legal for road use in the UK. Not that it is checked in the MOT.

Pagid fast road pads were another brand put forward to me at the time.

[Rusty Wishbone]

... and DS2500 was a starter track pad, and not even legal for road use in the UK. Not that it is checked in the MOT.

If they are not legal, what is the next best thing? Or am I too worried about legality? My primary concern here is safety.

[rip]

If they are not road legal then it may be because they don't work very well when cold?

I read somewhere that EBC have used several different compounds for their Greenstuff with varying level of performance. The main criticism being that some were rubbish when cold. I also read that they have now got it right, but if they don't label their different compounds then it may still be chance whether or not you get a good set?
That is only from hear say. I've never used them.

The Pagid compound which has got favourable reviews is Blue RS 4.2. These are expensive but if they stop you when others may not, surely they are worth it?

EBC also do Redstuff & Redstuff ceramic which are supposedly better than Greenstuff. They also do Yellowstuff but these are recommended only for track so I guess they also don't work very well when cold?

[dapinky]

.... DS2500 was a starter track pad, and not even legal for road use in the UK.....

Where the heck has that come from???????

Of course they are legal in the UK (for an elan, anyway)......

...reasons being, as alluded to in my previous post, lack of certain certification.

In the case of Ferodo, the DS2500 compound does not have the "R90" specification as required for road use in the EU FOR CARS MADE AFTER 2001.

This does not mean that they aint good enough - just that the compound is considered to be >15% better than standard

If you think that a 15% improvement makes them illegal, then you are miss-reading ECE-R90 - it merely puts them out of 'standard' range for road use.

The same can be said of Redstuff ceramic, Pagid Blue and any of the other improved compounds - however, the crux of the matter is that it only applies to cars post 2001.


By the same arguement, anyone who has fitted Willwoods, Hi-Specs, Brembos or anything else to improve their braking is also a criminal, as they sure as eggs is eggs havent got ECE-R90 approval for use on an elan

[Rusty Wishbone]

Dave,
Thank you for that. I'm comforted by your comments.

[Jeemy]

.... DS2500 was a starter track pad, and not even legal for road use in the UK.....

Where the heck has that come from???????

As I said, general forum wisdom, mostly from boy racers. Perhaps I should have said 'not technically road legal' rather than the rather worrying sounding 'illegal'!

I took some notes down when I was looking at what to get, and yes I do recall that the DS2500 were not un-road-legal because they are not safe but because they don't pass this Reg 90.

I kept a note of some of the threads and checked over a few of them, and there were even insurers posting up saying that although its never going to be checked on MOT, its pretty impossible for anybody to strip your brakes and check a filthy pad for identifying marks, etc etc - technically, non-reg-90 brakes on the road, or any other modification not strictly road legal, could invalidate your insurance.

One of the best comments was "I value my safety more than a pointless regulation". One could argue that within 15% of OE performance brakes still aren't safe on an upgraded Elan.

I had not, however, realized either that pre-2001 this made no difference, or that big brake kits/discs/calipers improving braking by more than 15% also are considered 'not road legal' under Reg 90. I thought like Rip it was more to do with them being a hot-performing compound.

Presumably as Elan drivers this also doesn't apply to us on the same exemption clause as the pads? While I comprehend that the pads are not easily checked, presumably a giant shiny brake caliper is a bit more obvious. Technically it appears to mean an insurance claim could be refused on this basis??

What I am most confused about, is if the modifications are declared to the insurer but the car is still not technically road legal, what the scenario is. Hopefully scaremongering and hopefully under pre-2001 rule we're all exempt anyway! But I was just about to fit bigger brakes to my 2005 Audi......going to need to look into that one......

[dapinky]

Jamie,

In no particular order lets see if i can give my observations....

The 'pre 2001' thing is a bit of a grey area at the best of times - the regulation only applies (according to it's litteral definition) to items fitted in a 'commercial' transaction - so if a garage was to supply and fit the pads, it would be illegal - but they can legally sell them for you to fit youself Or alternatively, you can supply the parts and they can fit them legally! No-one ever said the law had to make sense!
The regulations were the main reason that there are still a fair few of the uprated Ferodo poads for sale on eBay and elsewhere (In my opinion).

It was originally conceived to prevent the influx of inferior parts from Eastern Europe (and now, I suppose it includes China/India etc) as 'unbranded' replacements (or even those still containing asbestos), but every manufacturer needed to submit pad material for testing for every application it wanted to use....

...due to the nature of this testing they needed to have sufficient expected sales of each pad to make it a worthwhile enterprise - luckilly our OE pads are a Vauxhall pattern for the front) but the rear ones are not fitted to any other EU car - - - as such, i would be surprised if ANY rear pads for the elan have the R90 identification (but i stand to be corrected on that one as everyone searches for the boxes in storage ) and is the main reason for such a limited selection in the UK.

There is currently no regulation to say that when you import a vehicle into the UK (or any other EU country) you have to change your brake pads to R90 compliant ones

As far as fitting bigger brakes to your Audi - I would expect any (or at least most) availlable upgrades to be compliant due to the volume of sales of the cars (especially if the new system is one used on a higher-spec standard car fittment).

As for telling your insurance company, i would always advise to tell them everything - in my case all modifications are disclosed and there is no extra premium to pay (£254 for both cars, agreed value, unlimited miles, EU recovery etc - Peter James Insurance).

The term 'Road Legal' is extremely missleading and unhelpful, and I'm sure that insurance companies would try to avoid paying out for anything they could. That said, there is a big difference between what will pass an MOT and what is 'legal' (lots of other Regulations to consider) as an example, for the MOT you only need a number plate to be visible from the front and rear within a 15 degree viewing angle - so numbers scratched into the paintwork will still pass - however, under Licensing Regulations it needs to be as per a standard plate (retro-reflective, bs145a, standard font etc etc). Lighting Regulations also bugger it up a bit as well

Anyway, I've known of enough elans to be written off (and paid-out on) with upgraded brakes fitted to see a precedent.....

I suppose that if someone wanted to make an arguement out of it, many modifications to our cars could be considered 'not road legal' if you look at all the regulations - the roll bars have never been submitted for Type Approval, and if you rolled the car and banged your head on the metalwork (instead of the tarmac) some could say they added to your injury (I know that personally i'd rather be alive to have the arguement, though!!!) and how about harnesses instead of seat belts? Brighter headlamps etc

In my capacity as a police vehicle examiner I have never known of a single case where uprated brake material has been considerd to be a 'defect' - and I've stripped and examined a fair few over the years...... That said, I've never looked at a road car with pure race pads (yellow-stuff and the like) fitted - if a collision ocurred at 40 mph then i suppose they could be considered to be defective???? - but each case on its merits.

Just thinking outside the box, here - what about when a competition car (rally car) is driven between stages on the public roads - should the pads be changed?

Where's Gareth when you need him

[ccb056]

I have upgraded the fronts to HiSpec's 283/24mm Billet 4 and use EBC Yellowstuff DP4143R.
I am very happy with these brakes.
When the rear pads wear out I am considering replacing them with EBC Yellowstuff DP4978R and keeping the OEM calipers.

It does not seem that the Yellowstuff suffers in cold braking.
The Yellowstuff does generate a large amount of dust.

Greenstuff is organic, Redstuff is ceramic, and Yellowstuff is kevlar.

EBC also makes a Bluestuff and an Orangestuff.... I do not know much about these.

I think Green, Red, and Yellow are all ECE R90 tested... not sure about the Blue and Orange.

Here are the EBC part numbers for the stock front pads:
DP2325 (Green)
DP3325C (Red)
DP4325R (Yellow)

[Rusty Wishbone]

Thank you to everyone for your comments. It is pretty clear that we don't need to worry about upgrading or improving our brakes from a legal standpoint, so long as we notify our insurers. We just need to fit components which are going to be at least as safe as those on the car when new, which shouldn't be difficult.

I have to say that, for me, I won't buy second-hand braking components, or braking components from anyone other than a reputable supplier. There are too many counterfeit goods out there to take that risk. The same would apply to other items which are safety critical.

[HJ2]

Dear colleagues,


I am about to purchase a new set of blocks for the front.
I am talking about the 16" Hi Spec brake kit from Bob.

Does anyone know if there is a list that i can find with my options? as in: what will fit?
I realy don't know my way around (yet) in brake pad land in terms of form factor...

I currently use Mintex 1144s which were absolutely brilliant in the beginning, but now performance starts to fade, block's half gone...
I aim for the same or better performance from cold as the Mintex and tend to Ferodo DS2500 (as they were good on my MR2)
With heavy street use (as per Ypres ) as main use.

[Enright]

I don't know what profile pads Bob's kit had, but I've been happy with DS2500's if that's any help. They seem to wear reasonably well but don't have any of the "oh my God I'm not up to temperature yet" moments of EBC's!

[HJ2]

I hated my green stuff. Only used them once on my MR2, but they are still on the rears of the Elan!Truly overrated stuff.
Anyway, i have Mintex pads ready for the rears, so perhaps i should just stick to that...

What would be a good source? As in the Netherlands... rare + expensive!