Jeemy's Elan Rebuild

[Jeemy]

At this point I discovered a spliced, then cut wire - possibly another chance to find an ignition key for my rear electrics:

Tilted the fascia up and connected the vacuum port:

And fitted into place to feed the stereo wires through. Its best to insert the top first as per the below:

Then connect the bracket behind the stereo hole:

I replaced all the bolts with much stronger/longer ones and thicker washers to try and give more support to the mis-shapen parts:

The dash will still need some correction but between overwrapping it and improving the fixings behind the fascia a second time, this little fault should come in further:

Finally I put a new bolt in to secure the lower fixing (the greasy marks you see everywhere are ACF-50):

Connected back the stalks:

It turns out its better to put the top shroud on, then fit these through, then attach the bottom shroud, and finally the steering wheel back on (I still need to torque the centre bolt back to 30Nm).

But thats the interior done enough to drive into the spray shop; and test the electrics & heating/vacuum. Anything else that I don't want overspray on, is being left out for now; although I'll put the centre console loosely back for a fitment check before wrapping:

I rewarded myself with a beer and it was time to clean up all the airhoses I'd been soaking in G101 with the dash parts I'm not fitting yet:

[HJ2]

Just a small tip (and thus a compliment):
Why not bring out this tread in bookform? Send it to your digital printer shop and sell it!
I really love this tread, keep up the good work and keep those piccies coming

[Jeemy]

HJ, you're just the man I hoped would be about to help. See at the end of the following post!

Time to rebuild the turbo & exhaust. I drilled out the broken bolt from the manifold:

Tightened the studs to 20Nm, and applied Fire Putty:

Put on the metal gasket. Later I decided it was better to putty the gasket rather than work round all the studs:

[Jeemy]

I torqued this down to 43 lb/ft no problem:

Next to go on is the little pipe. I'd bought this metal gasket from SJ, but it doesn't look like its going to fit.

So I used the paper one CR sent me instead.

Pipe, done.

I'd never treated the 2 heatshields - a pure omission but it gave me the chance to make them a different colour from the manifold. I gave them a quick etch/rust-kill.

And collected together all the remaining parts. I decided to spray the oil & coolant banjo pipes; I don't think the spray will affect their ability to transmit fluid where an errant paint drip might:

I sprayed them all with VHT aluminium:

On they went, together with the gasket for the downpipe:

Here's where we ran into problems. Trying to torque the downpipe nuts to factory settings of 20ft/lb, I snapped one of the studs provided by Piper! Luckily I'd got 4 from SJ just in case - you can see the longer stud on the left.

The second side was even worse. Torquing up, suddenly the brass nut started to slip. I was exhausted and went halfway home before deciding I couldn't leave it and went back for a look.

Removing the stud it turns out the brass nut is just spinning on the stud. I inserted by hand, one of the longer SJ studs. So here's where I am stuck - the copper bolt is ruined!

Can anybody help or advise?

- should these even be torqued to 20? Is this too much for the Piper down pipe/bolts? I received no instructions from Piper

- what do I do? Use another bolt? Get another from Piper?

- have I ruined my chance of a good seal by not being able to torque this down before the paste dried?

I'm a bit worried that because I can't get the stud insertion/removal socket onto this stud now without removing the whole pipe, that trying to use another nut to tighten it down will cause even more strain on the nut; so maybe I have to dissassemble and re-attempt this stage. I almost definitely have compatible nuts on site, but they won't look as uniform as the copper - although this is at the bottom, the longer stud is right at the top. I'm really, really annoyed with myself. I feel like I rushed it and wasn't careful - the torque wrench puts an awful lot of force to bear on the nuts, and equally the torque of even 15, 20 ft/lb is really quite tough - so the slightest angular force can strain parts too much against their weak direction.

But I really was careful. I worked round from side to side so I didn't put undue pressure in one spot, and had another guy hold the construct still while I carefully adjusted and tried to make sure I was at right angles.......I am so annoyed.

[dapinky]

Jamie,

it might be just my poor memory, and I'm sure you'll have researched it far more recently than I have, but i seem to remember that no gasket sealants etc were used in the exhaust/turbo/manifold/head assembly, and that the thick multi-layer gaskets can be re-used many times, and just assembled dry......

.....i'm sure you won't want to have to strip and reassemble the lump you have now got, so i hope i am incorrect in my memory.....

....but that may also be part of the reason you have stripped the copper nuts - if they need to be 20ft.lb (which isn't really a lot), then you factor in the 'squashability' of the paste used, it may well be putting too much force on the threads before they reach the end number on the torque wrench.

[muley]

When I refitted the turbo on mine i replaced all the studs and nuts with stainless bolts. Namrick were able to provide all the correct lengths. I worked on the basis that the bolt could be made of anything (cheese, wood?) so long as i could torque it up correctly.

I had no problems thereafter and stood a chance of getting them out later if necessary.. ..having sheared most of them off on disassembly.


Jim

[dapinky]

..... I worked on the basis that the bolt could be made of anything (cheese, wood?) so long as i could torque it up correctly........

This was the principle that I used in a cold wey rainy carpark in the middle of nowhere on the Isle of Man - fitted with a length of (scavenged) M8 threaded bar cut to length with a single junior hacksaw blade (held in a pair of pliers!) - not even High Tensile (luckily, as i didn't have another saw blade with me!!!) - did the job just smashing until we got home and could fix it properly.

[Jeemy]

@dave - I don't know mate. When I was buying stuff for the exhaust, SJ sold assembly paste and it was labelled under M100 parts so I guessed that it would be needed.

I read up as much as I could and technically the paste can be used completely in place of the gasket. I understood the exhaust - turbo gasket was the metal 4-plate one and that on some systems, these would compress on torquing and probably be unusable afterwards.

There were so many varied opinions and advice on whether to 'go in dry' or to use paste, I know for a fact paste was used (rightly or wrongly) on the engine block to manifold joint; the others were so dirty its impossible to tell what was there - the final opinion I got was that it didn't much matter, the Service manual says very little aside from to use paste on slip joints.

The manifold-turbo gasket was several layers of metal, the downpipe and the remainder of the exhaust gaskets are the perforated silver stuff.

When in doubt use both paste & gasket seemed to be the prevailing wisdom.

But then when I saw the paste, it dries hard virtually instantaneously; where I thought it would stay moist and then harden under heat. So I am a bit worried that the non-torqued bolt will have dry paste under it which will crack. But I wiped down to a very thin layer anyway, everything will change under operating heat anyway, and @muley I think I will go with what you suggest - use something I have lying around and go with torque as the important factor.

HJ says its really easy to work with and even remove the downpipe due to the better access so I can proceed without too much unhappiness I think.

I was so tired last night I literally fell asleep mid-post. There's lots of pre-spray work done but I'll post the info for that all together.

[Jeemy]

.....i'm sure you won't want to have to strip and reassemble the lump you have now got, so i hope i am incorrect in my memory.....

....but that may also be part of the reason you have stripped the copper nuts - if they need to be 20ft.lb (which isn't really a lot), then you factor in the 'squashability' of the paste used, it may well be putting too much force on the threads before they reach the end number on the torque wrench.

I (possibly naively) assumed paste plus gasket was better than gasket alone. Lack of experience may have led me down the wrong path there......I also see, although, again, lack of knowledge means it sounds a bit counter-intuitive to me, that a pasted joint would require more strain to be put on the nuts to achieve the same torque. I'm going to go with the naive approach and assume that especially if bodge jobs in wet car parks hold, that this will too, and put another bolt on. I sincerely hope I've not messed it up.

I will not be able to find out until next week. No manifold bolts in the post today, unless they come via courier.....

[cliff]

Jamie,

mine was fitted without paste as well, twice, once by Piper and by me when I ported the turbo. As far as I know, there is no need for paste.

Piper fitted my downpipe using allen bolts, so plus 1 for the Muley way of doing it.

Incidentally, there is enough room to fit & remove the downpipe with the turbo in place. That might make life a bit easier and allow you to progress a bit more by fitting the manifold & turbo.

[Jeemy]

Its done. I stripped a second stud trying. Eventually I solved the access problem by putting 2 nuts on a cut down stud, allowing me to use a slim socket to ground it, then I backed the top one off, got torqued and then left the top one on cos it felt right!

[muley]

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I remember putting the gaskets on dry because the O2 sensor doesn't take kindly to exhaust gunk (or so the instructions tell me..)

Jim

[Jeemy]

Erk. Well, it will get 1-200 miles run before the O2 sensor & wiring goes in. I'm not putting it in until the second time the dash comes out - I feel that for the first part I want to have altered as little as possible in case I need to trouble-shoot. Hopefully this will be enough to run off any gunk that might be generated. There's not much I can do about it now unless I want to put the project back several weeks.

Although it looks fairly messy in the picture, I skimmed it with a plastic card and wiped off the protruding excess on the inners - before compression of course so more may have come out; although little to none extra did on the outside, I planned only to shave off what was visible once installed…..so there isn't THAT much there.

The other reason I did it was it holds the gaskets in place while you fit them. So do the studs arguably but I bet this is why there is definitely old paste on the manifold-engine block gasket.

[dapinky]

.....but I bet this is why there is definitely old paste on the manifold-engine block gasket.

Hmmmm - that one should definately be fitted dry

[HJ2]

Sorry, i'm late at the party.

I used the seals delivered with the Piper. They are of the lead composite compressible type, just as the manifold to engine seal.
These compressible seals don't need any additional sealant. They can only be used one time as the compression is almost none elastic. (but sometimes i reused them with success anyway )

The turbo seal, multi layer metal, is almost non compressible, but the seat of the sealing is different (metal to metal type). This seal can be placed dry and is, indeed, re-usable (I reused it 5 times now, without any leakage. However i used a very thin film of copaslip to prevent the seal from sticking if i need to reuse it again! Handle this seal surface with care, and keep the seal clean. Dirt or sand will ruin it.

When i inserted the studs, i used copaslip. I inserted them till they reached the bottom of the hole (this goes for all the blind holes only), and then unwind them 1.5 revolutions so thy don't get stuck at the bottom of the hole over time (i also did this with the manifold studs). The downpipe is held in place with the Cu alloy nuts. These are quite soft and i torqued them without a torque wrench, 'by feel' I did not have any problems and was able to re-use the nuts several times, although some came out completely with the stud as they 'grip' on the thread.

If the studs are OK, you could use another nut if you like, but use one designed for the job, as standard nuts might come loose over time. The Piper nuts are sharp on the bottom and used without a washer so they 'grab' in the downpipe to prevent them from getting loose over time.

The use of standard bolts or threaded rods i would not recommend, unless it is the same steel type as the manifold studs. In due time, removal of the softer steels might be another challenge

The paste is usually used in the exhaust section where you can fill the gap where the separate pipes slide in each other prior to tighten the clamps.
Oh, and clean the internal threads by cutting them again if necessary



Please note that this is how I do it, this is not necessarily the perfect way to do it. However, for me it works fine so far !

[Jeemy]

Great tip on the studs Henk-Jan, I assumed they had to seat. I have emailed Piper asking for another set of studs & nuts so I have spares on file.

From now on, aside from copaslip, all parts will have to bite the pillow - I am going in dry!

With a few problems as noted, I contented myself with a good tidy of various workshops and areas so I can maybe be a bit more efficient next week, and some tiny tasks.

The bung kindly donated by JonT is getting a soak in Ferrosolve::

Using HJ's very very useful picture from his downpipe thread, I set the oil drain pipe back onto the turbo after a good clean with Meguiars Engine Clean:

Next thing was to fit the coolant feeder pipe to the turbo. I managed to thread it through OK:

And then it needs 2 copper sealing washers, one either side of the pipe. I read a long time ago its best to replace these and totally forgot. Examining the bolts, the washers are stuck onto them and I've painted them off so I prised them loose and measured them:

Couldn't find any 18 x 12 x 1mm but I guess they were 1.5mm which compressed so I ordered some new compression washers which have just appeared now.

Turbo now being ready to go back on short of these washers and the manifold nuts, I moved onto some other small engine tasks - I am STILL awaiting my gold hoses meant to arrive 2 weeks back which I've waited so long for now, I might as well continue to wait before I reassemble throttle, clutch & electrics.

I'd cleaned the solenoid for EGR and painted its mount so I put that back on, it had been very loose previously:

The pipes I decided to replace with vacuum extruded, the inner diameter looked to the eye much more wide than 3mm, and more like 5mm (3,4,5 blue hoses pictured):

5mm didn't secure on well so I used 4mm. Replaced the black/white cable with black going from the bottom of EGR to this location under the plenum box:

[Jeemy]

And I replaced the black/blue with blue - this goes to the back of the plenum, I am 99% sure this is right but want to check it again before starting engine - the parts manual shows a vacuum actuator here which I don't have.

It turns out Samco do NOT supply the jointing piece for the T-bar to coolant pump hose; and having mistaken ID (internal diameter) for something else the previous 13mm pipe I'd ordered was no good, I ordered a 16.5 and a 19, the only sizes I could see, and the 16.5 fitted good, 18mm outer diameter:

Linked the two pipes, leaving a sliver of alloy showing just for the glint:

Second to last coolant hose, done:

I genuinely think I can finish fitting the charge cooler (awaiting bolts) & hoses, finish resoldering the electrics & reconnect them (awaiting hoses), drop the turbo in (awaiting nuts) and put the exhaust together (have all the parts, but can't do until the turbo is in), in 2 days.

However its a bank holiday Monday. So I won't receive any parts. The hoses haven't even been despatched and now won't go out til Tuesday if they have even come in. I think I'll just take Monday off as my nuts aren't at the post office this morning, and aim to finish Tue - Wed. Forecast is sunny Tue, rainy Wed.

So if they don't arrive Wednesday, I am going to start her anyway. Its not THAT much of a stretch to put the plugs back on and take them off again.

[Jeemy]

Welp.....my nuts got returned to sender. Obviously out of the 50-100 letters & parcels we receive a week it would be these that the postman makes a c*ck-up on.

So they will put them out again today but its likely they won't arrive til Wednesday.

Given that the manifold gasket needs to be dry however, what do you guys reckon? If I:

- put on the left stud by the PAS pump
- lowered the turbo & downpipe into place on a crane & then inserted the remaining studs & fit the EGR pipe

.......could it sit on its own weight on the studs? I have 2 bolts so I could hold it in pretty good.

That could be done Monday, meaning I can work the exhaust right back and do everything else - retension the PAS belt, finish the electric work, connect the turbo, flush & fill the coolant, check the oil, perhaps even change it over - and then simply bolt the manifold down the day the bolts arrive and start her up?!

[HJ2]

I lowered the entire assembly (Manifold, Turbo. Downpipe) in place from abovewith a lift.
I put in the far most Right (Drivers pov) stud first and only, slid the manifold over the stud and then put in the far left one (both without nut)
I cut a gap in the gasket where the far most right stud goes, so i can slide it in (see pictures in my tread) After that, insert the remaining studs and torque the nuts.

Enjoy!

[Jeemy]

Cool yes, far left is drivers position for me. If the gaskets are meant to be dry and whats more can be seperated and resealed, as long as I don't seal it up to tight and the turbo assembly is secure I can be fitting most parts before even the nuts arrive so as not to delay further.

I was concerned and had also been told that it would need seated in one go. But from my memory of how hard the turbo was to jiggle when just held in by one bolt and the EGR pipe, I think on 9 studs, 2 loose bolts and the EGR it will be seated strong enough to mount exhaust and heatshield. Looking forward to this week again now!