B Pillar Holy Grail at last!.

[Jamie N]

As some of you Guys will be aware I have been constantly striving to develop a falling pillar seal in EPDM rubber that equals the A pillar ones I have done, it has been a ridiculously difficult task for something which apparently looks easy, not so!, I have gone through a mountain of "test pieces" and endless stress in the quest, but I have finally designed / fabricated something that works so well and makes that part of the Elan just completely transformed from the mess that is apparent on so many of them nowadays, you know that look, like a huge bomb has exploded in a sponge factory .

I have constructed them with a couple of different features, first of all at the base part you will see there is a flap, this goes over the space at the edge of the hood cover and prevents water from running in to that area and is a precise fit to the edge of the side window / door edge and flips over that part as the door shuts, the back of the seal is also rubber, instead of the original bracket on the outside I have made them with a stainless steel bracket which is actually inside the seal with two lugs which allow it to be screwed to the part of the hood frame which the original bracket butted up against, this means that the seals can be easily removed if needed, but here is the better part.... the lugs that attatch the seal to the hood frame are set at a certain angle so that when they are tightened onto the frame (the part that is flat and approx. 15mm wide) the effect of those two parts coming tight together has the effect of pushing the back edge of the seal onto the hood, and because I have made the back with rubber this squashes onto the frame and seals it watertight meaning there is no need to use black sealant!, that means they can be removed at any time easily and without damage, it also means you can reach and see the stainless steel screws unlike the originals which have to be poked around for as they are inside the sponge (which being filled with water meant the screws are 100 times out of 100 rusted to ****

The downside is they are still labour intensive and each one takes about 3 hours to construct from start to finish!, however the results are well worth the effort ive put in, I have a few done already and will endeavour to cut down the time it takes to make them in order to help out some guys that desperately need them.
I will keep this post updated with developments.

This setup you can see here is just phenomenally watertight, the intermediate seal is another different design from the earlier ones I made and works amazingly well, you can fire a powerful hose at this and nothing gets in. How tidy does that look!




A close picture of the flap at the base, this flips over the very end of the door as it shuts with minimal contact but you will notice mainly the visual impact on that whole area, remarkably clean and tidy. I will get more pics when I have all the other seals back in place including how I have connected these to the hood.


Jamie.

[maz_r]

Looks fabulous and you've obviously spent a great deal of time and effort getting such a "better than OEM" solution. I think the expression is 'we are not worthy'!

[Ian T]

Excellent solution, looks really good - I hope you are going to be selling kits?

Ian.

[novacaine]

Looking good! I may as well complete my set if you have a set to sell me haha

[abmunro]

Superb effort.

[Jon]

Looks spot on - well done!!!

[HJ2]

Holy cow!

That is just superb, well done!
Another great product that will improve sustainability of our beloved Elan's, thanks!

[Danevansgolf]

Well done, looks great.. So serious question is when are you staring to sell these, and how much are you looking at.. Had the other seals off you last month, now it's just a matter of tiding the whole lot up. Daniel

[Jamie N]

I was speaking to a couple of other Guys on the Forum about this as I have no idea what they are worth, considering the time and effort that goes into making them and also all the time ive spent developing them over the past few months ( how do you compensate 3 months stress that ages you 3 more years anyway ).

Im thinking maybe the best idea is to put a set on ebay and alert everyone here and that should give a fair approximation of what to charge, does that sound like a fair idea?, I don't want people to think im doing them just to make some cash as that's not what its all about for me, I like a challenge to do these things similar to a lot of the guys on the forum and if I can help in any way keeping our little cars in good shape then that gives me great pleasure, but at the same time I cant put in that amount of work and make a loss either ,so its a bit of a strange one.

So a pair on Ebay and we will take it from there?. Man I hate this kind of crap, makes me feel bad.

Jamie.

[Rusty Wishbone]

I don't want people to think im doing them just to make some cash as that's not what its all about for me, I like a challenge to do these things similar to a lot of the guys on the forum and if I can help in any way keeping our little cars in good shape then that gives me great pleasure, but at the same time I cant put in that amount of work and make a loss either ,so its a bit of a strange one.

I think that this is something of a challenge for us, actually. I know that many or most people disagree with me, but I think it is better to have a secure ongoing supply of rare parts supplied by someone who is making a profit on each item than an erratic supply (say, a group buy) where a few items are made at a time and supplied at cost. Maybe this is the capitalist in me, maybe this is an Elan owner who uses his car every day and wants to keep it on the road with an immediate supply of parts.

A good example of the secure supply of rare parts is SJ Sportscars who have had various parts re-made, and I feel that they charge a fair price for those parts.

[Jon]

I think everyone would agree that a secure supply of on-going parts would be best for all of us - but I think in reality that is very difficult to achieve.

As a relatively inactive LECer for the past decade I've missed out on many group buys, purely because I didn't need something back then, only to discover now when I need things that they are exceptionally hard or impossible to come by (though I think a large part of the blame also lies with Lotus who seem to have had a change in strategy in the past few years - I recall visiting Hethel sometime in the mid 2000's when they were proud of their parts department who's job was to continue to source and supply obscure parts for cars which were many decades old - now they seem to have abandoned parts supply for older cars, which in the long run seems rather short sighted since people are surely going to be less inclined to buy their cars if they think that after a few years they won't be able to get parts...but that is all slightly off topic).

Certainly SJs has certainly done a good job at reproducing some parts (I recently acquired their new reproduction grab handle and it is a vast improvement) - however they can't, and undoubtedly won't be able to afford to, reproduce every NLA and short supply component - but sadly as I read on anther post recently, it seems they won't stock or sell parts produced here by other LECers unless they are given exclusive rights.

Now I can understand that SJs don't really want to buy/stock a bunch of XYZ and then find that someone else undercuts them - but I also think they might be demanding a little to much of the people who have put blood sweat and tears into producing these parts - and frankly that doesn't help "on-going" supply to us all, nor does it help the LECers who do such an amazing job (at much cost to themselves) of developing these parts (or who are considering developing a part) and need a route to help recover their costs and better commercialise their products (and provide that on-going supply to us the Elan drivers).

Please understand that this is just my opinion and understanding based on some of what I've read and I'm not trying to discredit SJs (I like them and would happily recommend them) but just to recognise our LEC reproducers and group buy organisers - I think ultimately what I'm saying is that it seems like the attitude of SJs (and perhaps others) means that our reliance on periodic group buys seems unlikely to change anytime soon.

[Ian T]

I don't want people to think im doing them just to make some cash as that's not what its all about for me, I like a challenge to do these things similar to a lot of the guys on the forum and if I can help in any way keeping our little cars in good shape then that gives me great pleasure, but at the same time I cant put in that amount of work and make a loss either ,so its a bit of a strange one.

I think that this is something of a challenge for us, actually. I know that many or most people disagree with me, but I think it is better to have a secure ongoing supply of rare parts supplied by someone who is making a profit on each item than an erratic supply (say, a group buy) where a few items are made at a time and supplied at cost. Maybe this is the capitalist in me, maybe this is an Elan owner who uses his car every day and wants to keep it on the road with an immediate supply of parts.

A good example of the secure supply of rare parts is SJ Sportscars who have had various parts re-made, and I feel that they charge a fair price for those parts.

I'd agree with both of these posts; making a loss isn't a fair option and you should recoup something for the effort you have put in to get to this stage, plus the ongoing labour of making more. This is an odd situation where if you could just find a manufacturer to take the load off you and establish demand for say 200-2000 sets, bulk manufacture might drive the costs down due to less labour, but then the entrepreneur making the investment up front would be entitled to (probably) treble or quadruple that investment to make it worth doing.

The point on security of supply is well made. If I buy a car this month that needs those seals, it will be worth my while to fit good seals and avoid the damp leg experience. I'm a fan of group buys too, but having something where the supply chain is excited to be selling the product and quick about it is worth a little extra money. The obvious question is about longevity, assuming the material lasts well in this application and rivals the OE part in survivability, it's probably approaching a similar 'worth' price, less, presumably the contribution to overheads in the supply chain (property rental, staff wages, warehousing, logistics etc.).

Ian.

[epipete]

So a pair on Ebay and we will take it from there?. Man I hate this kind of crap, makes me feel bad.

Jamie.

Jamie, I think you are doing a great job with these seals; as to their value there are two ways of looking at this, one is the cost to you in time, effort expended, materials, etc, etc and then something for profit, & the other is to market them as planned on eBay.

The first option really won't be practicable because you, I assume, have a life outwith M100 fabrication so that leaves the eBay route, supply & demand will dictate the price here the first offering will demand hight price and this will fall with subsequent listings. Such is the nature of our capitalist society I wouldn't beat your self up about it

[Neill1607]

Maybe a list of people who are interested in buying a set of these seals (like me!) would give you an idea if immediate demand.
This would then let you spread your initial "development" costs between them.
You could then produce further sets, as & when required (if you're prepared to), at "parts & labour" cost.

Just a suggestion, but I think you can guess - I'd like a set to match my others!!

[chrisP]

Its all looking good for the B-pillar seals, any further development on the A-pillars?

Best Regards
Chris

[TrevorB]

The B Pillar development is excellent and I would be extremely interested in purchasing a set.
It would definitely tidy up 'Merlot' in that specific area.

I shall watch purchase options intently.



Trevor

[Brit-Car-Nut]

It would really make it easier for everyone if the seal was called the same think that Lotus called it: Falling Pillar Seal. Creating new names for parts just confuses everyone and makes it look like the only source for a readily available part.

If everyone that thinks these are GREAT parts would just research how to adjust their windows (after 20+ years, they are ALL out of adjustment, you would see the stock 12 quid seals work just fine.

Ignorance and lack of mechanoical skill isn't a good excuse to be pie-pipered down a path of odd and incorrect parts and movement in that direction only prevents the remanufacture of the correct and original parts possible.

Once you have modified a system, it wil be near impossible to get ALL of the parts needed to return it to the way it was designed originally.

Jamie: I am not attackiing you directly, but you keep complaining how your project is KILLING you by making you inhale toxic fumes. STOP IT. Life is too short for anyone to make a feww hundred quid by exposing themself to dangerous compounds. You should take your creations to a rubber injection or extruding company and have them make proper molds and make NEW versions that have no "patched" pieces bonded to other pieces which will fail as the bonding agent breaks down faster than the material.

The real solution is to adjust and fit the real parts that are still available from Lotus.

I am sorry, but my vision is to keep the cars and parts supply healthy for a long term future. Having some cars around in the future with an undocumented system or components only confuses the future repair options as people go out trying to find something that didn't really exist except as a home made patch.

Either get the new seals produced in bulk with full fitting capabilities without modifying anything else or STOP. From my point of view, you aren't helping anyone except yourself. You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now. You have way too much of the raw materials to not know the original source of it. Either be honest and offer ALL of the details or stop screwing up everyone's cars.

5 years from now, there will be a batch of probably new owners who will be baffled trying to figure out where to get seals to replace those that are then falling off their car.

[Fredjohn]

Like everyone, I am watching this development with interest. However, no-one has as yet been able to identify the vehicle from which they came (I have been racking my brains trying to think of any possibilities...TVR? Morgan? frameless window convertibles?) and if I understand correctly you found the seal in a container in a scrapyard. So my question is this: how much do you have and roughly how many A post, falling pillars and intermediate seals could you make from your stock?

This will clearly have an impact not only on how you price the parts, but also which seal you concentrate your production on, although LEC etc demand may well help determine this. Until the original source is identified, you have a finite stock, putting you in the same position as any Lotus dealer or specialist holding original style seals.

Just adding my 2p worth to the "how do I price this discussion", if only to further confuse the issue!

EDIT above written whilst BCN was also posting. My question still stands however.

[nicowalker1]

It would really make it easier for everyone if the seal was called the same think that Lotus called it: Falling Pillar Seal. Creating new names for parts just confuses everyone and makes it look like the only source for a readily available part.

If everyone that thinks these are GREAT parts would just research how to adjust their windows (after 20+ years, they are ALL out of adjustment, you would see the stock 12 quid seals work just fine.

Ignorance and lack of mechanoical skill isn't a good excuse to be pie-pipered down a path of odd and incorrect parts and movement in that direction only prevents the remanufacture of the correct and original parts possible.

Once you have modified a system, it wil be near impossible to get ALL of the parts needed to return it to the way it was designed originally.

Jamie: I am not attackiing you directly, but you keep complaining how your project is KILLING you by making you inhale toxic fumes. STOP IT. Life is too short for anyone to make a feww hundred quid by exposing themself to dangerous compounds. You should take your creations to a rubber injection or extruding company and have them make proper molds and make NEW versions that have no "patched" pieces bonded to other pieces which will fail as the bonding agent breaks down faster than the material.

The real solution is to adjust and fit the real parts that are still available from Lotus.

I am sorry, but my vision is to keep the cars and parts supply healthy for a long term future. Having some cars around in the future with an undocumented system or components only confuses the future repair options as people go out trying to find something that didn't really exist except as a home made patch.

Either get the new seals produced in bulk with full fitting capabilities without modifying anything else or STOP. From my point of view, you aren't helping anyone except yourself. You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now. You have way too much of the raw materials to not know the original source of it. Either be honest and offer ALL of the details or stop screwing up everyone's cars.

5 years from now, there will be a batch of probably new owners who will be baffled trying to figure out where to get seals to replace those that are then falling off their car.

Just out of interest, have you seen or installed any of Jamies A pillar seals? I can only say that I am very impressed at the fit...

[Jamie N]

Either get the new seals produced in bulk with full fitting capabilities without modifying anything else or STOP. From my point of view, you aren't helping anyone except yourself. You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now. You have way too much of the raw materials to not know the original source of it. Either be honest and offer ALL of the details or stop screwing up everyone's cars.

Who the hell do you think you are talking to me like that? do you honestly think you are going to be the big man and slander me like that and get away with it? well you just rocked the wrong boat mate and I wont sit back and take that s**t from ANYONE, by **** you have chosen the wrong victim, now ive got a few points to make here and I will leave the most important to last, man you want to lay out s**t and accusations to people you better be prepared to take the rap because you just made a bad error, a very bad error .

For a start, who are you to preach to other people about what they do to their car?, people are intelligent enough to decide if they want to put non oem parts on their car from whatever source they want and that is their decision, not yours and nothing to do with yours, there are a whole heap of non oem parts on Elans, not just rubber seals!, you are making out that using them will somehow be a future disaster for Elan owners, well none of them make any changes to the car that cant be undone and all put back to original ones if desired so where is the massive problem there?, that just smacks of you having some ulterior motive and jealously, its so obvious its incredible.

Pie pipered down a path of odd and incorrect parts?, that's just a pure insult to the Guys on this Forum, why would anyone write that anyway if they didn't have some other agenda?, I think you will also find the term is "pied piper".

"Once you have modified a system, it wil be near impossible to get ALL of the parts needed to return it to the way it was designed originally". What the hell has been modified?, because it certainly is not anything to do with fitting the seals, they are a straight fit on and don't "modify" anything whatsoever!, another obvious comment that tries to manipulate peoples thoughts into thinking fit rubber seals and your Elan is doomed!.

There are very few "bonded" parts and how on earth do you know that the bonding agent will break down before the material?, you don't know what the bonding agent is so how can you be once again the predictor of doom when you don't have the facts?.

"The real solution is to adjust and fit the real parts that are still available from Lotus".
Once again you play God, There are a multitude of non oem parts that are a "real" solution and are "real" parts which a multitude of Elan owners are using, it is up to them which ones they choose, not YOU.

" I am sorry ( YES YOU WILL BE IN A MINUTE ), but my vision is to keep the cars and parts supply healthy for a long term future. Having some cars around in the future with an undocumented system or components only confuses the future repair options as people go out trying to find something that didn't really exist except as a home made patch".
So all you Elaners out there with your upgraded this that and the other be prepared for mass confusion about all those major components you have fitted, never mind a couple of bits of rubber! whoa our brains are destined for meltdown it would seem, big brakes , exhausts, wrong offset wheels, chips, gear cables, homemade hardtops and I could go on and on and on but you get my drift, well unless you have "Ignorance and lack of mechanoical skill " to quote again, you all will be intelligent enough to know that "mechanical" is also the correct spelling.

"5 years from now, there will be a batch of probably new owners who will be baffled trying to figure out where to get seals to replace those that are then falling off their car".
Wow this dude is also a clairvoyant!, the fact you have come to that assumption and put it in words like that is just totally and utterly proof that you don't like what I have done for people, jealous of the praise that people on the Forum have stated, and want to scaremonger once again, and what about?, bits of bloody rubber!.

And now we come to the Last part, and have you just made a BIG mistake pal, you aint getting away with this, I will take this s**t from nobody, just to reiterate here is the statement, and what a statement!.......
" You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now. You have way too much of the raw materials to not know the original source of it. Either be honest and offer ALL of the details or stop screwing up everyone's cars."

That is just shocking beyond belief and truly shows you up for the type of person you are, you are a real nasty piece of work, this is libellous and you aint getting away with those kind of statements towards me, I will make sure of that, man you have just s**t your own nest. Right you have labelled me dishonest by telling me to be "honest", in fact you are ordering me to do something, once again being the big man with your capital letters, and then you order me "to stop screwing up everyones car" holy crap! I cant believe im even reading that!, I have screwed up everyones car? no in fact its plural, im screwing up everyones cars!!!!!, that is just incredible, you have the biggest chip on your shoulder and man does it show, so the few Guys on here that I have helped to keep the rain from soaking their knee I have screwed up your car, I am really struggling to hold back on the swear words here folks , really struggling, so you reckon I have found out what the seals are from eh? well yet again all of your defamatory statements are based on supposition and your desire "STOP" what im doing, you are so wrong and heres why, because all of the seals I have made have NOT utilised material all from one type, I have 4 separate types of seal that have all went in to making the seals I have done, and the intermediate seals have been made from offcuts from not only those but also other types of seal that I have taken from cars like Mazda Subaru and Fords, and I have only made a very small amount of those, no more than half a dozen!, so that is why there have been a few sets of A pillar seals, I have used my own skills, my own time and my own money to create a few products, which incidentally have only generated positive comment and have provided a "solution" of which a few people have been delighted with, but you don't like that do you big man?.

Now it gets really really nasty, you absolute liar, you f****** absolute lying rat, if you were here in front of me you would know all about it, you would be needing sealed alright, here again to reiterate is the statement from big man.....

" You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now" .

Im telling you man if you were here you would be not be in confusion about a bit of rubber, you would be dazed and confused you would not know which planet you were from, so here once again is the facts, not some clairvoyant crap from Brit-car-nut, who is one of the biggest liars on this board, in 2007 I got my 1st Elan after being besotted by them from the first one I ever saw many years previous, I loved that car and done many things to improve it including some rubber seals, however shortly after that I was diagnosed with Cancer which they thought was terminal and I only had months to live, I was devastated and coming on a Lotus forum was the farthest from my priorities so the Elan was sold, I however don't give up easily with ANYTHING and fought it like a Demon, there was no way I was losing my life to that, I have truly been through a Hell you just cant imagine and i have now been given the all clear to the astonishment of several oncologists and consultants, and do you know one of the first things i had to get on hearing that news?, yep another Elan!.
However, now after finding a solution to the eternal problem off rotted seals and helping a few peeps into the bargain i now get this CRAP on my case, but here is where you excelled yourself Brit-car-nut, check you statement once again just in case we are in any doubt.....

" You did this back in 2007, made a bunch of money by misleading everyone into thinking you had found the holy grail, only to disappear until now"

Right Mr know it all Brit-car-nut, i want you to tell me exactly, and i mean EXACTLY all those people i "made a bunch of money " from back in 2007, maybe those people will be reading this? well i doubt it because there was no bunch of money made from anyone, those seals were found on a Renault 19 and the information was disclosed at the time and people were trying to buy them from Renault, i did not make them and did not sell a bunch of them to anyone!, you have blatantly lied because your nose is out of joint, it just got too much for you and you had jump in, face the truth Brit-car-nut, you just don't like it. Read his post everyone, its just so obvious, this "mans" colours really shine through.

Well i will tell you this Brit-car-nut, i wont be intimidated by you so keep your lies and scaremongering to yourself, it don't frighten me, i have fought the ultimate fight pal and you don't come within a billion miles of that scariness. Pathetic.