hardtop

[alan e]

Just looked on eBay and someone in Kent is making new hardtop's is it anyone on here ?

[TrevorB]

Alan, looks like Tim has seen the same ebay topic as he's posted the link. Personally not interested in a hardtop but maybe
someone needs to ask the question of the seller on ebay.

Trevor

[mitreklov]

Alan, Trevor,

I sent the seller a message asking for more details, if and when I get a response I'll let you know.
I did suggest they might want to make some noise here on the forum about the possibility of making some new tops and gauge the interest.


Tim

[theelanman]

erm....just hang fire a minute chaps.....
this has been spotted and questions have been asked
we are just checking that production of these are allowed.....(by the company which made them initially)
the last thing we'd want is for you to buy one.....it all go wrong...end in court proceedings and you having to give the tops back

[Peter D]

I met a guy on Brands Hatch, claiming he is in the process of finishing his first hard top.
Made moulds on an original hard top, and wants to start producing them.
Glass window, headliner, in primer, for £ 860,-.
It's an older, retired person, recovering from brain surgery.
He had his Elan on Brands Hantch with the hard top mounted (in white on a green Elan), though not yet finished to perfection.
It was parked at the big tent, behind the restaurant.
I didn't go there to look at it, as I'm not interested in a hard top, so no pictures.
But I did get his business card (he's not very into computers, so no mail or website).
It's Plastic Mac, for all your glass reinforced plastic needs
07940319553
Hope this helps anyone interested.

[Ian T]

I enquired earlier and got a brief reply, I am still kicking myself for not bidding on the blue not that came up a couple of weeks ago.

It does *look* similar to the Kuching one (hope I spelled that correctly).

Didn't see him at Brands, but the description is exactly as per the eBay ad, which has now been pulled. Would have liked to have seen it, he's not far away from me either, wonder if he is a member on here?

Ian.

[Jon]

Firstly I'm not in any way affiliated, involved or associated with any party involved in the manufacture of any hardtop in the past present or future - just a regular forum member - but I'm surprised that the forum now seems to have become "the patent police":

this has been spotted and questions have been asked
we are just checking that production of these are allowed.....(by the company which made them initially)
the last thing we'd want is for you to buy one.....it all go wrong...end in court proceedings and you having to give the tops back

I recall when the first hardtops were made and I'd be surprised if there was any patent - so in a society which values free trade surely the e-Bay gentleman is entirely free to produce hardtops? Particularly given the original manufacturer no longer makes them.

Surely we as a owner interest forum we should be encouraging new manufacture, not giving the guy a hard time??

Just my two-penneth worth.

[theelanman]

the hardtops were made by a forum member and owner through his company...
he designed the hardtop....tested it and produced it.....using his company to fund design and fabrication
he has intellectual rights for that particular hartop....
if someone would like to design a new one then that's fine....but to steal someones idea.....to directly copy......not on really

he also designed structural roll hoops, fairings and a flared rear deck......

[Ian T]

Yep, a bit of a silly situation really. If directly copying the original, surely there is no need as the original manufacturer has decided not to continue manufacture probably due to lack of demand. In which case a quick phone call to them might agree a price for the moulds and future manufacture could be handed to Mr Mac in Kent.

Of course if the original moulds have been binned it would seem the original manufacturer deemed them to be of no value and a simple courtesy call from Mr Mac might be all that's needed for a 'go for it, but good luck selling those' response from the design owner.

Of course this might prompt the original manufacturer to run a few more off... Group buy?

At the £800ish figure I would be interested assuming that it would still need painting at that.

Ian.

[Simon_P]

probably due to lack of demand.

Ian, that is probably it!
I tried quite hard to do a hardtop shell ie just the moulding and finish it yourself. Lots of people interested... but not serious.

If there is sufficient interest I will dust off my prototype and make a mould - I'm going to finish it anyway as the elan is my everyday car again and winter is coming.

[Ian T]

I really like the design of the Kuching one, so if yours is similar I'd be tempted but need to see it first.

This isn't something that would be beyond me to do either, but seeing how the double skins were put together in the eBay ad for the original one put me off a little as that would mean I had much more design work to do to make a matching inner skin.

Many (many) years ago I used to work (work experience) for a company in Beverley, East Yorkshire building sonar equipment and next door was a company making caravan front panels. I got to see all the stages of manufacture and was lucky enough at school to be shown how to make moulds that would resist the exo-thermic reactions in the resin as it goes off. I made model boat hulls but never anything bigger.

Quite honestly I would rather buy something where all that hard work has been done.

Ian.

[theelanman]

Message from Kurching (the originator of this particular design of hardtop)

:-This is a blatant breach of my IP and I have now made this point to the person listing it.

It’s not my style to be heavy-handed with such matters – and I’ve no doubt that there other hardtops around. But for someone to try and profiteer from my hard work and investment without even the decency to contact me is stepping over the line.

On the other hand, if someone was willing and capable of taking over the project legitimately – for the good of the Elan-owning community – I would consider suggestions favourably.

[theelanman]

its all do-able......

just need to ask nicely.....

[Ian T]

Well, let's hope that from this a new run is made - I doubt the demand in total is more than 10 and probably 5 might be over-egging it a bit for the first couple of years.

I hope Mr Mac is reading this and knows how to contact Kurching (spelling corrected, thanks).

Ian.

[HJ2]

... do i smell yet another group buy coming?
Please include roll hoops, fairing and rear deck

[Jon]

the hardtops were made by a forum member and owner through his company...
he designed the hardtop....tested it and produced it.....using his company to fund design and fabrication
he has intellectual rights for that particular hartop....
if someone would like to design a new one then that's fine....but to steal someones idea.....to directly copy......not on really

Just for factual correctness, if the SPC/Kutching (the original manufacturer) didn't register the design then their IP/design rights last a maximum of 10 years from the end of the first year when the design was productised - this is split into two parts. The original manufacturer only has exclusive rights for the first 5 years - the second 5 year period other parties can manufacture the designs but may have to agree/pay royalties to the original designer.

Looking back at the forum history it is difficult to determine at exactly what point the original design became productised - but it was certainly a product by January 2015 and I suspect an IP laywer might easily be able to argue that it was productised late 2014.

So [probably] from the end of this year [and almost certainly from 2016] - anyone can copy and manufacture [rip off] the SPC/Kurching hardtop (however morally questionable) and there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it.

Right now, anyone directly copying and the SPC/Kurching hardtop would need to seek a license to do so and pay any agreed royalties for the design.

However, this relates to direct copies. Whilst there is suggestion above that this gentleman admitted copying an original hardtop (though that would be hearsay rather than proven fact), if this guy claimed that he had designed the hardtop and it happened to look just like the SPC/Kurching one then there is probably very little which could be done about it.

Ultimately SPC/Kurching would have to prove that their design had been copied - since any hardtop has to fit the shape and style of the Elan then they would all be very similar - probably only the shape of the back window could be used in a uniqueness argument. In all likelihood this would be an expensive legal process for SPC/Kurching and seems rather pointless when there isn't exactly a lot of money to be made.


But that is all by-the-by - Kurching has indicated that he would be agreeable to handing over the project to someone new - so let's help smooth things over between these two (from the sound of what is written above the new guy thought he was copying an original hardtop which is no longer manufactured for the greater good and didn't realise that he was potentially stepping on anyone's toes) and encourage things along and hopefully see some more hardtops available for Elan-ers!

[Ian T]

I agree, if Kuching doesn't want to make them any more but is happy to have someone else take it on, we are all winners.

Ian.

[theelanman]

:agree:

I agree, if Kurching doesn't want to make them any more but is happy to have someone else take it on, we are all winners.

Ian.

naturally

that has always been the case......Kuching has always helped.....
I don't think he was over enamored at having his work misappropriated without his knowledge

as it is......(I cant speak for Kuching)......I would assume
that if a competent person with the means to do this properly was to ask nicely then they may be producing hardtop in due course

[Kuching]

Perhaps I should weigh in here and clear up a few misunderstandings;

Nobody is suggesting that lawyers or the courts are going to get involved in this. I’m willing to accept that the gentleman who placed the posting on ebay did so without any malicious intent, and that advice otherwise has been accepted.

Please understand that an incalculable amount of time, trouble and expense was spent in designing and developing the hardtop. I would think better of any Elan owner than to suppose that someone else might then be entitled to take a mould off my design and start marketing it for their own gain.

I haven’t produced any hardtops for a couple of years now. Not so much for lack of demand – I still get enquiries – but because it became increasingly difficult to divert the resources of my business to such a time-consuming project; and I wasn’t willing to keep increasing the price to reflect its true cost.

I do still have the moulds and it would be simple enough to put them back into production but we no longer work with GRP here so, if they were to be produced again, it would need someone else to take it on.

If someone was willing and capable of doing justice to this project, then I would be interested to discuss. I do now consider the design to be owned by the Elan community at large, and LEC members in particular, but until I hand over custodianship of production privileges, I don’t expect anyone to rip it off.

[theelanman]