hardtop

[Jon]

Thanks Simon - I didn't mean to undermine or understate the time, effort and value of your work - it was a triumph for Elan owners and it is a true shame it couldn't be turned into a long-term marketable solution.

I can certainly understand that you would be frustrated to find that your design had been copied (legally rightly or wrongly, certainly morally questionably). As such you are perfectly within your rights to defend your design (and you'll know whether that would have been achievable or worth it).

My original concern/surprise was that this forum - which is supposed to be an owner's interest group - seems to have become some autonomous and unilateral authority which feels it can go about warning people off undertaking projects (which seemed to me to be the implication of what had happened).

In essence my point was that you have every right to question the gentleman on whether he should/can produce these, the forum does not and should not as I originally stated be acting as the "patent police".

I'm sure many Elan-ers will be please to hear that you would consider discussing the production of these further - I just hope no one has been put off.

[theelanman]

I can certainly understand that you would be frustrated to find that your design had been copied (legally rightly or wrongly, certainly morally questionably). As such you are perfectly within your rights to defend your design (and you'll know whether that would have been achievable or worth it).

My original concern/surprise was that this forum - which is supposed to be an owner's interest group - seems to have become some autonomous and unilateral authority which feels it can go about warning people off undertaking projects (which seemed to me to be the implication of what had happened).

In essence my point was that you have every right to question the gentleman on whether he should/can produce these, the forum does not and should not as I originally stated be acting as the "patent police".

I'm sure many Elan-ers will be please to hear that you would consider discussing the production of these further - I just hope no one has been put off.

[alan e]

What have i started i think the gent may be put off making the hardtops if he is reading this, (i hope not)

[Ian T]

Well, if you hadn't posted about it, I would have.

I hope that there will be an amicable solution and that some kind of production can follow. It struck me that the original hard tops were of good quality, so the use of the original moulds will be preferable. I guess I will sit and watch, and hope that I can buy one soon, either from a happily negotiated Mr Mac, a third party, or a genuine second hand one.

Ian.

[Enright]

My original concern/surprise was that this forum - which is supposed to be an owner's interest group - seems to have become some autonomous and unilateral authority which feels it can go about warning people off undertaking projects (which seemed to me to be the implication of what had happened).

In essence my point was that you have every right to question the gentleman on whether he should/can produce these, the forum does not and should not as I originally stated be acting as the "patent police".

I have to strongly disagree with that viewpoint.
As a small community linked by a very small production run, I have always been proud of the way that we look after our own, and virtually nobody has attempted to exploit the market.
Certain people in the past released details on how they had modified MGF/TF hard-tops for the Elan, and I would say very best of luck to them.
But outside of Lotus themselves, only Simon Kuching has ever designed and built a bespoke unit, and his design with it's flying buttresses was immediately identifiable. Knowing how much of his own time, expense, and even HEALTH he put into support of our community, I would certainly not like to see his ideas being ripped-off, whether intentional or not.
So when this product was spotted, steps were taken to immediately check with him as to whether this was an approved copy or not.
And in the meantime a note was posted that we were looking into it.
That doesn't seem like acting as the "patent police" to me - I just put it down to full and open disclosure of a situation that we were aware of, which had yet to be resolved, but which could involve someone's hard work being reverse-engineered whether they liked it or not.

[Simon_P]

My original concern/surprise was that this forum - which is supposed to be an owner's interest group - seems to have become some autonomous and unilateral authority which feels it can go about warning people off undertaking projects (which seemed to me to be the implication of what had happened).

In essence my point was that you have every right to question the gentleman on whether he should/can produce these, the forum does not and should not as I originally stated be acting as the "patent police".

I have to strongly disagree with that viewpoint.

Whereas I strongly agree with it, but then I'm not a moderator or the thought police!

I agree with Thelanmans sentiment, but not the way he wrote it.

[Jon]

As a small community linked by a very small production run, I have always been proud of the way that we look after our own, and virtually nobody has attempted to exploit the market.

But was anyone trying to exploit a market here? The guy involved had an Elan, wanted to produce a hard-top (which is no longer in production) and wanted to gauge an interest from other Elan owners who might benefit at prices which seem to be pretty much cost price - doesn't exactly look like exploitation of the market from where I'm sitting...

The guy should have been welcomed by the forum - albeit with a quiet, gentle, behind the scenes suggestion that he might want to talk to Kuching as a point of courtesy - that was my point and sort of reinforces my view that the forum appears to have been somewhat heavy handed in it's response to this guy.

[dapinky]

My 2p worth (for what it's worth!).....

.... We can never know if the ebay 'seller' was making/selling things at 'cost price' - as no items were offered for sale, and no price was ever mentioned.

I have only seen the couple of pictures on ebay, which showed a hardtop apparently finished in primer (as stated by the ebayer), and it doesn't take much looking at to say that it 'looks like / resembles in its entiretry the Kuching hard top, as previously designed & manufactured by Simon Carrier...

...in such a 'small' target marketplace, I can't see that there would ever be any liklihood of attempting to say it was anything other than a copy of the item we all know as the 'Kuching hard top' - other types have been build to various designs by other people, but I believe that THIS model is considered to be 'the best' availlable (or previously availlable).

I also can't see that the ebayer would reasonably expect to sell loads of them (small market, cost of production), and is probably doing it as much as a hobby / to help the community, as to run a business which would attract any of the dragons in their den. (whilst probably helping to reduce his own 'unit cost' for his own use).

There is a thin line (morally, and legally) between right and wrong when it comes to Intellectual Property (in the absence of any designated patents), and the timescales we are talking here, put it very much into the grey area.

What I can say is that Simon put a lot of time and effort into the final design - and has an interest in ensuring that any 'copies' are made to the same standard - after all, if it LOOKS like a 'Kuching Top', it ought to be built to the same standard, otherwise it could well cast aspersions on his own (previous) productions.... and that just wouldn't be right (certainly morally, if not legally).

Now, Gareth first spotted the ebay advert, and raised a question amongst the Mods (at that time we didn't know what the situation was in relation to Simons levels of awareness/permissions).

Simon is no longer hugely active on the forum, so a message was sent to him to clarify the position, before we felt able to 'endorse' the product (or otherwise) on the main Forum - if this sort of action isn't what you'd expect from a Moderator team, then I'm not sure exactly what you DO expect of us..... Simon is/was a well-respected member of the community for a number of years, and deserved to at least be made aware of the item(s) 'advertised'.

It was whilst an answer was being awaited that Gareth made his initial 'open' post - which may or may not have been worded exactly as anyone would want to see, but working on an iphone whilst trying to earn a living and have a life doesn't always afford the luxury of elegant prose.... and he did what he felt was the best for LEC.

No-one wants a situation where a batch of 'inferior' products are suddenly purchased by unsuspecting members (and I'm NOT saying that there is/was anything wrong with the ones 'offered' - I haven't seen them (and they don't yet actually exist, to the best of my knowledge))....

...we are here to try and SUPPORT members, not tell them what they can/can't spend their money on.

Again, to the best of my knowledge (and I may be wrong) - the ebayer is NOT a member of LEC (but if he is, he should perhaps have stepped forward) - so OUR duty is to the members, NOT to an anonymous ebayer (who may well be a really genuine guy, but I don't know him).

Simon has subsequently expressed an interest in providing the original moulds to get the items produced again, to everyones' benefit - but only if he is happy that the quality will be maintained - I see nowt wrong with that standpoint (any financial considerations are not for me to comment - as long as the quality is good, I'm happy FOR THE COMMUNITY) - so surely we are all winners!!!!!

Gareth acted in good faith, for everyones' benefit and I don't like to see people lining up to throw stones at him on this occassion (I'm happy for you to throw them at me if you want - I've got the benefit of hindsight as I type).

Bottom line, it makes no difference to me - I've already got a GENUINE Kuching hardtop, but please remember, we are all just trying to help - we don't get anything (except a bit of grief) for Moderating on this forum, and it appears some people are quick to complain, but (with a few notable exceptions) slow to show appreciation.

[Rambo]

Guys - just to put the record straight... its a Kuching hard top (as in Simon Kuching, the designer and developer ) Not a Kurching hard top

[Simon_P]

There used to be a very detailed post with all of the development work that Simon put into developing the hardtop - It seems to have disappeared!

There were several companies that have produced hardtops over the years none of them amounted to much, only due to Simon's persistence, did his get off the ground. It is easily distinguishable as it is unique in replacing the rear deck cover.

In my opinion no one should countenance buying a copy that doesn't have Simon's approval. But I don't think it is within this forums remit or capability to decide by who, and to what standard of quality, replacement parts are made. For discussion of course; but being protected by the moderators from the effects of ensuing legal action, I somehow think not!

[dapinky]

Guys - just to put the record straight... its a Kuching hard top (as in Simon Kuching, the designer and developer ) Not a Kurching hard top

...and where did the surname of Kuching come from Mark?????.........

....... from his website you can see the following:-

For the founder of SPC Design, Simon Carrier, this is the logical progression of an impressive career in motorsport and automotive design – not least, leading the design team that created Ford’s World Rally Championship winning car of 2006 and 2007. Looking further back, his career highlights include development on the Nissan R90C Group-C Sports Prototype Car which achieved pole position at Le Mans in 1990; and the Lotus Formula 1 cars of 1991-1994.

[GeoffSmith]

There used to be a very detailed post with all of the development work that Simon put into developing the hardtop - It seems to have disappeared!

The great crash of 2005 unfortunately.

[Rambo]

Guys - just to put the record straight... its a Kuching hard top (as in Simon Kuching, the designer and developer ) Not a Kurching hard top

...and where did the surname of Kuching come from Mark?????.........

....... from his website you can see the following:-

For the founder of SPC Design, Simon Carrier, this is the logical progression of an impressive career in motorsport and automotive design – not least, leading the design team that created Ford’s World Rally Championship winning car of 2006 and 2007. Looking further back, his career highlights include development on the Nissan R90C Group-C Sports Prototype Car which achieved pole position at Le Mans in 1990; and the Lotus Formula 1 cars of 1991-1994.

I stand corrected Dave My memory isn't as good as it used to be. Simon Carrier, not Simon Kuching and certainly not Simon Kurching

[dapinky]

We agree, Mark

[GeoffSmith]

You two senile old gits!

[Simon_P]

The great crash of 2005 unfortunately.

My doesn't time fly I can remember the pictures of the buck being CNC cut. I was sure I was looking at them a couple of years ago.

I thought the crash was earlier than that as we had to re-register on a different site when the wheels fell off and then again on the new site.

Where did the link to the pre-crash site go? Speaking of which, anyone seen the weather forecast....

[GeoffSmith]

Just like busses. Two senile old gits are rapidly followed by another..... two senile old gits.

Talking of old, happy birthday to me. Nursie, it's time for my Ovaltine.

[John_W]

Belated happy birthday wishes, Geoff.

[Megwenda]

I am watching this link with bated breath, I would love a hard top (provided the price was right).
The Swiss climate is a bit cold for the soft top

[Kuching]

Thanks for plugging the website Dave

I am indeed Simon Carrier. The name 'Kuching' came about as I had just returned from a trip to Sarawak, Borneo when I was signing up to LEC all those years ago. The name of the city was rolling round in my head when I had to fill in a user-name. However, it doesn't really trouble me when referred to as Simon Kuching (I've been called much worse).