Any audiophile out there?

[Megwenda]

OK, first let me say I am over 60, have pretty good hearing (despite years of working with heavy machinery without using earplugs), but am basically tone deaf.

Also, I am talking of audio in a Lotus Elan M100, which is not the best sound chamber. I also suffer from Tinitus, so like to have external sounds whenever I am driving to counteract it, so always have music on when I am driving (yes, I know the 'purr and roar' of the Elans turbo powered engine is music in itself)

OK, I am going to install a DAB radio, as well as new speakers in the Elan. I do not intend installing an amp just yet, nor subwoofers. The radio heads I am looking at generally have 4 * 50watt output (ie, Sony CDX-DAB500A).

Following advise in previous topics, I am not going to install rear speakers (at least not yet... may change my mind if I ever install an amp).

OK, I am looking at mounting Infinity 6.5 inch speakers, just not sure whether there is any point in spending the extra cash, plus time and effort to mount component speakers or not
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-rqOPcnJOK4 ... 502ix.html
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GT9tlEfzrN ... l#Tweeters

SO, my question. Would the component speakers bring me anything? Where would I mount the tweeter .... maybe towards the top back of the door to bring it closer to the ear?

Any tips would be appreciated

Regards
Dave

[Ian T]

I agree the Elan isn't exactly the best car for HIFI, but the purchase of my car put me in a similar position, a previous owner had cut out the door cards and fitted some 6" speakers. Not just any speakers, but some very low profile paper ones. So they are past their best and I had a bit of a hunt round for something suitable. My preference would be to mount speakers behind the door cards, but that option was somewhat removed for me. I have settled for some second hand JBL GTO629 coaxial speakers, not just because I still like old kit, but because they sound good and have a now rare quality - a very plain and minimalist grille.

I think in a soft top car that you might want to use and park all over the place, (even though thefts have probably dropped since the 90s) there is no point putting nice things on display.

In your case, I would look for something you can mount behind the door card that has the ability to sound clear when the volume is turned up. There's a surprising amount of depth available really. Component speakers are great but leave you with fitting the tweeters to either the door mirror cheater panel or dashboard, relying on reflection from the windscreen. I reckon in an Elan, the cheater panel isn't really an option as it is inevitably going to get wet, so you would be left with fitting them to the dash corner where it meets the bottom of the windscreen frame. Problem there is they are on display, but this really depends how you use your car as to whether that is a risk or not.

Any attempt at getting bass probably will be equal between the front doors and rear speakers, mine have sadly been 'upgraded' and while they aren't terrible, I might do something about them too.

I fitted a cheap Halfords own-brand DAB / Bluetooth / CD head unit that can play from USB sticks and SD cards, to be fair it lacks some of the quality feel you'd expect of the top brands, but it performs well enough and gets quite a lot out of even the poor speakers that came with the car.

So yes, decent door speakers and a modern head unit would be my staring point too.

[Fredjohn]

I am of the same age profile as you Megwenda, and I, like Ian, also fitted Halfords Sonici "does it all" head unit. OK as a unit, but obviously not top quality. No amp fitted though. Play mostly pop and rock.

My original speakers were of the rotted shredded paper type, so I fitted 4 1/2" fronts from Juice: Good and clear, ok bass.

I also replaced the rear speakers with some 5 1/2" ones from Hi Fi Tower: an online audio supplier based in Germany. Very good prices and the speaker I used I am very impressed with, even though it blasts straight into the back of the seat. I've had to fit them with only part of the grill in place because of the way Lotus designed the mount. I did not wish to completely re-do it.

All the speakers I used are 3 way bridged tweeter/mid range. As Ian says it avoids the necessity of finding somewhere to fit the tweeters etc.

With hindsight I think I should have bought a Hi Fi 5 1/2" product for the front as well. But I'm happy.

Hi-Fi Tower can be found here. They also have a shop on ebay with special offers sometimes. Quite impressed by their product, prices and service. They also do amps, head units and kits of all types: eg power amps with bass units and speakers if that's your thing.

Just my tuppence worth: audio is ultimately very subjective and you are in a convertible after all. My home hi-fi cost about £3-4,000, but you cannot replicate that in any car!

Good luck.

[dapinky]

I'm (sort of) hijacking this thread with a bit of a question for anyone who may know the answer (John?).... (but I'll take advice from anyone!)

Whilst I've never worried about the quality of the wireless set in the car, I have now decided that it may be time to upgrade the speakers so I can hear the darn thing without getting all the distortion and noise at volumes where I can actually hear what is meant to be playing (over the wind noise).

Basically, I'm not after a super-duper concert experience, but something which works for me (bearing in mind that I'm mainly deaf in one ear anyway, so full tonal range on the right side doesn't matter!).

It was over 30 years ago that I last worried about sound quality in a car, and have put up with OE stuff since then (albeit that OE stuff in my cars has always seemed pretty good, with multiple speaker systems etc).

I have already got seperate tweeters (but they're miss-matched) in the door panels, along with (I assume) 4" main speakers - so I am looking to fill the existing holes with new tweeters (I know they would be better higher up, but want to avoid having holes in the door panels).

The rear speakers seem to do very little at the moment, and I find that to get anything out of them I need to set the balance quite far to the rear - at the detriment to the front.

The head unit has got facility for an amp to be connected into it (4 channel if required) - but it puts out more than enough oomph without increasing it, so I am thinking that it just needs speakers to cope with that oomph - if i set the headunit volume to half-way it is quite loud enough for me, but is extremely distorted (or doesn't it work like that?)....

So, I reckon that I need a decent 5.25" speaker for the front, with a seperate tweeter (and crossovers).....

.... however, I have seen this one on ebay (following Johns' recomendation) and have some questions.

If i fit the mid range and tweeters in the door, and the woofers behind the seat, all powered from the 'front' output of the head unit, what can I expect?

Should I wire the woofers into the 'rear' output? (do I need more crossovers?)

Where should the crossovers go (currently in the doors) - and is there going to be any losses to keeping them in the door and running wires from the crossovers to the rear of the cabin?

Basically, am i over-complicating everything, and am I better off with a 2-way system in the doors, and either ignoring the rear speakers, or fitting new ones (which I can't hear), or am I talking myself into fitting an amp for the (new?) rear speakers?

Oh, and just to complicate it further, I want it all to be black (grills) - I can't be doing with shiny silver stuff - I do like the reviews of the Juice speakers, but not sure I can live with the bright orange colour of the cones .

Any advice gratefully received - and one last thing, I don't want to spend a fortune on it!!!!!

[Megwenda]

I dont mind you hijacking my thread... in fact, i am waiting with bated breath to see the answers to your questions

also, where are the tweeters mounted in your door panels?

regards
Dave

[dapinky]

Dave,

The tweeters are just in front of the main speakers - but are set into the door panel, so the new ones will need to be in the same place to avoid leaving holes.

I appreciate that it isn't the ideal place to mount them (for sound quality) - but the previous owner has left me with little choice

That said, I have got the old panels I took off the red car - I'll dig them out and see how bad they are compared to the ones I have fitted.

5.JPG

[Fredjohn]

Dave/Dave

I am not an audiophile really, just like an OK sound in my car, but my observations on your post:

Wiring all 3 pairs of speakers to the front only will deprive you of all the rear volume, such as it is. I think the better option would be to wire the 2 woofers to your rear output (ie use existing wires behind the seats), and then wire the existing door wires to the crossovers and onto the mid and hi speakers in the doors (presumably as current set up).

Since most of the stereo imaging is done via the mid and hi ranges, and all the low notes just exist, I think this would work. You would then just use the front-rear fader to get a balance of the sound range. The woofers would not need another crossover as they don't "read" the higher frequencies so well anyway, just the lower ones. Turn up the bass a bit, turn up the rears a bit and you'll probably get a good deep thumping bass sound. Or tune as required!! Bear in mind many expensive chav car set ups only have one single sub-woofer, using pairs of mid and hi for the stereo imaging.

The kit you identified on ebay is actually £3 cheaper on their own website!! The speakers I bought from them were these. 5" as you can see (not 5 1/2" as I first thought). The ones in the kit are 8": you will have to do some cutting and fitting to get them in: just make sure they will fit! And you will need to get some grills as they appear to be unprotected.

All of this kit would be wired from the existing speaker wiring. If you were to get an amp, this would work from either the dedicated phono wires at the back of your unit, or the speaker wires. As you say you could just get a 2 channel amp to boost the rear, or a full 4 channel to boost the lot. You are then getting expensive, although HiFi-Tower do amp/4 spkr kits. I thought about it, but after installing my system, decided there was enough power to drive the speakers loudly and cleanly without an amp.

As a car comparison, a powerful amp used at say 60% will give a cleaner sound than a lower powered one at 100%, just like a 1300cc car vs 3500cc V8 at 80mph!

All the usual riders to the above: a real audiophile may appear and shoot me down, but I am happy with how my sound system is, always bearing in mind cost and environment.
All this totally ignores your hearing capabilities!!
Other manufacturers are available.

[Megwenda]

Dave

Thanks (extra for showing the photo)

One idea I had was to replace the door insert card with a carbon fibre one, and to mount the tweeter somewhere on that...... keeping the old cards for 'just in case'

That is, assuming I dont go for the non-componant 2way speakers

mfG
Dave

[Megwenda]

John (Fredjohn)

Good points.... if there are going to be speakers at the back, they should be plugged into rear output

Maybe I get a pair of woofers for the back

mfG
Dave

[dapinky]

John,

thank you for your input (and checking the price on their website!) - a £3 saving is better than nowt.

Your thoughts fit with my original hopes, and is probably the way I'll go.

I don't think the 8" woofer size will be an issue as I can fabricate a suitable size box behind the seat whilst I'm re-carpeting the car.

... I'll leave the Amp for now (as the Head unit puts out 4 x 60W), but can easily add one in later if I need one.

[hodge]

There are various ways of skinning this cat, depending on your priorities. edit - there have been postings while I was writing this, but I'll post this anyway in case it contains something of use.
My priorities were - best sound I could achieve with minimum permanent damage to the car on a fairly modest outlay.
This is what I decided on, with rational to follow -
1) a head unit with additional phono/line outputs (as would be used to drive a separate amp ie bypassing the amp in the head unit - this used to feed a small self powered sub) and facilities in the unit to limit the lower frequencies going to main speakers (on the unit I chose you can select the frequency of the lower cut off to 60,80,90 100,125 Hz etc). I got a middle range CDE-113BT Alpine unit in a Halford sale which had these functions but they are common to other makes too.
2) 5 1/4" speakers with separate tweeters. ( I used Focal polykevlar 130 secondhand via ebay)
3) a small powered sub woofer (a secondhand pioneer tswx11a, now discontinued but often come up on ebay at around £100, there is a newer smaller replacement which I've not heard)
Rational :
The door speaker problem:
small speakers can distort/overload easily when trying to produce bass sounds at volumes you can hear midrange over car noise. The large flat panels in a car door are also easily set into resonance by lower frequencies and further distort/muddy the sound.
Solution:
cut the lower frequencies going to these speakers with controls in the head amp thus allowing the mid frequencies to be played at a volume that can be heard without the speakers being driven into distortion by large bass induced cone excursions, at the same time giving the head unit an easier time (bass uses lots of power from the amp) while also not setting off so much unwanted lower resonance in the door panels.
By connecting the selfpowered sub woofer to the phono/line output of the head unit the missing lower frequencies are replaced and as they are largely non directional, below, iirc around 100 Hz, this unit can be placed behind the seat. As the amp in the sub woofer is dedicated to driving the bass frequencies, it frees the amp in the head unit to deal more easily with the rest without overloading, ie it makes the head unit sound more powerful as it has more headroom to provide louder/clearer mid and upper frequencies before distorting.
Tweeter placement - for my criteria, I found the best sounding, easiest, most discreet, and least invasive place (ie NO CUTTING of panels for unit or wires) to be on the dash at the base of the A panel attached by self adhesive pads, wires discreetly out of site if unit is tight to A panel and also adding to anchorage of the little tweets. . By clever acoustic trickery, this surprisingly gives the impression that pretty much the full frequency range (including much of the bass, excepting that which can be felt) is coming from in front from the dash/windscreen area, you get more stereo effect too from this placement.
theory behind this trick is down to our Darwinian development as both predator and prey, with this requiring pinpoint accuracy of direction of such sounds as leaves rustling or a breaking twig in dense forest coming from either tasty prey or fanged beast - we necessarily have developed very good spatial awareness of the source of these higher frequencies and also the very nature their sound source ie big and dangerous or less threatening possibly tasty wee beastie. Lower sounds contain higher harmonics too which we rely on, to use for spatial placement, which is why this trick works - lower frequencies, below around 100 hz don't have this placement info (for humans) and in this set up the sub filters out the higher frequencies (it has a variable filter on a small remote) however those higher frequency spatial info harmonics from the bass sounds are played through the tweeters with the effect that you appear to hear pretty much the full spectrum from the direction of the tweeters ie up ahead in this case. A cute and effective aural trick.
My elan also had some tweeters already set in the door panel, I'll leave them there unattached to quietly cover up the
holes .
Disclaimer - the above is simply my understanding, of my experience in this area, explained as best I can, at this moment in time
it's a very subjective area

[hodge]

one thing I forgot to mention - as the sub contains no or very little stereo info when used at this frequency, you only need one sub, unless you need more volume.The stereo info of the lower frequencies is carried by the tweeter so you get the bass guitar, double bass or whatever ' appearing ' to come from wherever the producer put them in the mix ie stage left or right in front you, at least that's the theory and how it works ( mainly) for me .

[Megwenda]

Thanks for great write up.... lots to think about.

Will look at this when I come back from Ireland

mfG
Dave

[dapinky]

Pete,

thanks for that - it makes a lot of sense....

... the only issue (for me) is leaving the tweeters in the door isn't an option (my OCD won't allow them to remain as they are different to each other)....

...and whilst I understand the theory about spacial/spectoral awareness for sound - this isn't a big issue to me as I can't hear mid/high tones in my right ear anyway

I also like the explanation on using an amp just to free up capacity in the head unit - I hadn't thought of that.....

....any thoughts on these 2 (from the same seller as the speakers I'm looking at - but obviously, would consider any alternative advice)..... this or this

[Rice crispy]

with Hodge. I have a similar set up using the pre outs to a small amplified sub all in one unit and 5.5" 2 ways in the doors and 3 ways in the rear with the tweeters mounted up by the hood caps so they are up near my ear. Not perfect but ok. I've also just replaced my head unit with a http://www.halfords.com/sat-nav-audio/c ... ne-control which I'm impressed with. I haven't set up the phone yet as I'm waiting for it to be repaired.
David

[Megwenda]

Hi

I have the chance to pick up this active subwoofer very cheaply.... It seems to have a very good reputation?

Any idea where I would mount it?

I am reluctant to do it under the seats, we sit so close to the chassis, those bass sounds would penetrate where nothing should penetrate

Rough measurements indicate it might be able to fit behind and between the seats (where there is a pocket for paperwork)... is this area strong enough, and would it be a good place?

Any other suggestions?

mfG
Dave

[Rice crispy]

I've got a very similar bass face unit behind the passenger seat next to the pocket which works fine. Not heard the unit you are looking at but if its like mine then I would recommend one.

[Megwenda]

Thanks for info

was about to question how you found space the pax side as that is where the battery is, then remembered you do everything mirror fashion to my car (LHS version)

mfG
Dave

[dapinky]

Well, I've ripped out the buggers muddle of stuff that was in the doors - any similarity between components was purely coincidental - nowt matched!

The drivers door had a Kenwood 5" and tweeter - no proper crossover, but a capacitor soldered somewhere in the mass of stuff....oh, and really thin cable, with 4 sets of crimp connectors to various guages of wire - maybe a bit of insulating tape every so often, but not lots.

The passenger door had a 5" and tweeter of unknown make, a rusty-terminalled crossover - but to make up for it, it had 72 strand wires all the way to the head unit, with only one joint - and that was soldered!

Having done loads of reading on t'interweb, I've just about managed to confuse myself totally......

....so I'll ask some questions of the gurus on here (along with my own thoughts which may or may not be correct).

Firstly, I think it's only fair to say that I don't expect miracles with the amount of money I'm looking at spending, and I accept that all "specifications" of the equipment to be a tad optimistic - if I really could get 2400W of output power for this price, then all the decent makes would be out of business!

Just to re-itterate, I'm not looking for a sound like the Albert Hall - just something which I can hear at road-speed.

I take on board the fact that although my head unit (allegedly) puts out 4 x 40W RMS, it is probably nowt like that (otherwise it wouldn't have such a piddly inline fuse for it), and any amp is likely to improve things.

I also take on board that a bigger amp at a lower percentage of use is probably better.

I have read all the reviews I can find on the 2 options I'm considering - and they all say that they're cr@p - and nowhere near as poweful as the quoted figures! (but at this price, I wouldn't expect them to be concert level).

Basically, I am looking at the speakers as I mentioned in a previous post - Auna component - and the 2 amps are Auna AB0450 and cougar c300.4 .

(I know that the speakers are a tad cheaper directly on their website, but if I spend over £60 on ebay, I get 10% off the lot so it works out cheaper).

Okay, so the questions are:-
Is the more powerful amp worth the extra cash as I don't expect to be needing the extra capacity? (and it's probably not putting that out anyway!)
Is it going to 'match' the speakers better? (same power rating, and same make).
The Auna one is bigger and twice the weight of the Cougar - so that may be another consideration (for locating it).... assuming that more power = more heat.
The Cougar has MOSFET technology - is that a big improvement over 'standard' semi-conductors? -m the Auna doesn't say that it has mosfet, but i suppose it may have??

I am still looking at fitting the mids and tweeters to the front output, and the woofers to the rear - do I actually need a 4 channel amp, or would a 'better' 2 channel work? - maybe just powering the rear low frequency and leave the head unit to power the front? (I think that the proper answer is to get 4 channel amp and leave the head unit amp out of it, but may be wrong).

Do I still need to use the cross-overs which come with the speakers - or does the amp settings do all that?

Lastly, the wires which come with it are an unknown quantity (until it arrives on my doorstep) - what guage of wires are best to use? (bearing in mind that some of what I've ripped out were really not even enough for a doorbell, let alone audio!).

Even more lastly - have I actually answered all of my own questions? (TBH, I'm leaning toward the Cougar amp - I know it's 'only' half the quoted power of the Auna, but if i use all 4 channels split as described, it should be more than enough for my eardrums at low volumes (on the head unit) - together with uninterupted cable runs from the amp to the doors (just not sure if I still need the cross-overs - or maybe it'll become clear if/when I read the instructions!!!, oh, and what guage/quality of wiring) - oh, and does the quality of the RCA conection between the head unit and amp make much difference?

[Megwenda]

Oh well, I have chickened out ... just couldn't force myself to cut up door panels or modify the rear brackets etc. I am trying to keep the car as standard as possible, and any changes I do make should be capable of being reversed.

So, I am mounting 100mm two way speakers in the doors (Infinity 4002cfx), and two way 130mm speakers in the back (Infinity 5002ix). I have chosen a mechless head unit (Blaupunkt Brisbane 230) to drive them.

Depending on how it sounds, I may take Hodges advice and cut the low frequencies to the speakers, and add an active sub woofer (The head unit has capabilities to support this).

Thanks for all the input

mfG
Dave