Help please! what is this leak?

[hwg]

so a few days ago after a couple of really cold nights, i woke up to find a puddle of thin red (pink) liquid underneath my elan! by the afternoon it was washed away slightly by a spot of rain, and the following morning there was some more.
morning after that there was none - all three nights were equally cold, so i assumed that whatever it was had fully leaked out.

my initial thoughts were coolant, but:
i just put a litre of water in it and it was back up to the level it should be.
it was leaking lots, not just a drip, and its been sat for a week without me touching it - going by the amount i saw on the floor i would have thought it had lost a lot more than 1 litre, and like i said, whatever it was seems to have emptied by the third day.
just started her up (no problems) and revved the engine a little, couldn't see any drips underneath though it is raining at the moment so cant be sure. (also, cant rev the car and look underneath it at the same time - help doesn't get home until after dark)

other info:
the brakes still stop the car from a slow roll - havent tried going for a drive yet just in case
power steering still works fine
seemed to be coming from the RHS / drivers side at the front, but its parked on a slope facing downhill, with drivers side slightly higher, so cant be sure.

what do you all reckon? ideas and help appreciated

[dapinky]

Firstly, a couple of questions - what colour is your coolant (not the water, bit - I can guess the answer to that ) - there are basically 2 common types of coolant - Blue stuff and red stuff (Methyl based, and 'OAT' - Organic Acid Technology)....

... If you (or someone else) has used an OAT anti-freeze/corrossion inhibiter (Red stuff) then it could be that which you have found - it is great for it's job, but unfortuately not always compatible with the (older) elan cooling system.

It only needs changing every 5 years instead of 2, so lasts longer (but costs more) - but crucially, it doesn't like certain materials as used on older cars - great on modern motors with Aluminium and plastic tanks, but not great with some brass/bronze bits and pieces like we have.

It is possible that it has caused a failure somewhere, possibly at he radiator end tank - a common problem area.

However, if you are using Blue antifreeze, this isn't going to be the problem!

The only other 'red' stuff I can think of is the Power Steering fluid, and there are pipes and pump in the area you have found the leak. If you remove the lid from the fluid reservoir, it will have a dipstick built into the cap, and you will see how much you have - but if it's as big a leak as you say, I would expect the system to be empty.

I can only suggest that you wait until it's dry and get under for a squint - alternatively, can you remember if the leaked fluid was water soluble? - Power steering fluid isn't (very easily).

Please don't be tempted to try the oft-advised 'taste test' - OAT is poisonous, and Dextron fluid tasts horrible

[Jamie N]

I would go for power steering fluid, at the front r/h/s there is a rubber hose that comes down and runs along the base of the front frame that connects to the longeron and it can chafe on the curve over time, I have seen it twice on different Elan's that I have had.
You really need to get the car up to be able to see it, it may be visible through the hole at the bottom of the bumper, the one with the large rubber grommet.

Whilst on the subject of front bumpers, this is something I would recommend to anyone to remove if they have never taken it off before, all kinds of nastiness can lurk unseen behind it and cause terrible rot to the front of the prongeron and all the bolts and fixings that connect the bumper to the front frame, also makes it simple to replace the mesh with some new stuff (with a better design) than the old square hole rubbish. You may be surprised just how badly rotted the bolts are, great to replace all of them and waxoyl everything at the front, then in the future you can remove the bumper with ease.

Jamie's tip of the day .

[Simon_P]

If you are filling it up with water the red colour could be rust.

Power steering fluid is like oil, coolant is like water.

The water pump and outlet spout are at that end of the block

[hwg]

thanks everyone
questions in order:

is the coolant blue or red?
um, i don't know? the light was fading and its quite difficult to see in the tank. looks clear to me suggesting water, but that was after i put me litre of water in. i haven't had to touch the coolant in a long time, and its been serviced regularly by fibreglass services (lotus specialist). had a trawl through the receipts but i couldn't read Miles handwriting most of the time! did have some emergency work done by some other garage to replace the alternator at the beginning of last year, and they charged me a tenner for "fluids" so maybe? there is red flakey stuff around some of the jubilee clips which go to the header tank so i would guess red.

was it water soluble?
not sure how i would know this? the liquid was not very viscous, but it washed away while i was at work and it practically rained all day.

is the red rust coloured?
not really, more like a fluorescent pinky red. I've seen rusty water more dark orange-red. i don't think it was that sort of colour

now my question:
i turned the car on and turned the wheel left and right while stationary, it didn't seem to hard to do and i heard the whoosh noise it makes on full lock. is that behaviour possible without proper power steering fluid?

I'm leaning towards it being coolant, but will check the colour in the tank and the power steering fluid levels tomorrow.
either way, is it safe to drive short distances across town to the garage?

Thanks again

[Simon_P]

OAT antifreeze is a fluorescent orange/red colour

Power steering fluid is clear dark red colour.

You alone can decide if it is safe to drive.

[hwg]

You alone can decide if it is safe to drive.

ok fair enough, let me re-phrase:
assuming that i am capable of keeping control of the car* within any normal human ability, and that i wont come back here angry if i decide to drive based on your answer because ultimately its my decision...

if it is the power steering fluid, and the system isn't working properly - what is the risk of further damage due to driving the car across to the other side of town to the mechanics garage.

if it is the coolant - i think it can manage it if i top it up and maybe stop half way to top it up again. its only 10 mins at 20 mph with lots of traffic lights.


*I have experience of driving with intermittent power steering - its scary when it cuts out just as your about to turn, but manageable. never buy an astra.

[GeoffSmith]

Pour some water on the leaked fluid: Coolant is water based and will mix with the water. PAS fluid is oil base and will float on the surface.

[hwg]

thanks Geoff, I will try that next time.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Just my two cents:

It is below freezing most nights and adding plain water to the coolant will dilute the antifreeze and make it more prone to freezing while sitting. This is never a good situation since the block and head often sacrifice themselves to save the freeze plugs. If you decide it is a coolant leak and you add water to make it drivable, make sure the shop you take it to knows the antifreeze has been diluted so they can put it indoors in the heat to prevent catrastrophic damage. Don't let it sit outside overnight with diluted antifreeze. It might be the last time you get to drive your car for a while.

If it turns out to be PS Fluid (I doubt it), follow the feed line from the resevoir to the PS Pump and see if you can find the leak. Topping the fluid up will be fine but remember to use DEXRON and not generic "power steering fluid". If it is leaking, it will make a mess but it won't crack the block or head. Don't drive it any more than absolutely necessary.

[Simon_P]

You mentioned that the rain washed the fluid away.....

If you check the PAS dipstick and it is at the correct level it hasn't leaked much.

Better to ascertain what the fluid is before driving.

If you run out of PAS fluid the steering will go heavy. The lack of fluid will eventually kill the pump. To save the pump you could cut the belt off.

If you run out of coolant you will kill your engine fairly quickly. If you know it is coolant you could loosen the header tank cap while the engine is cold, this will prevent the system from pressurising so it will leak slower and you will be able to top it up if needed.

If you stop to top it up as you describe you may soak yourself in boiling coolant.

[HJ2]

What you could do: Start the car, and let it idle till the fan's come on, after that, put some white paper under the engine and let it cool down.
Reason: The white paper shows clearly what fluid it is and where it drips. Also: Waterpumps fail sometimes, and at cooling down they start ti drip untill engine is cold, then the dripping stops, leaving you wandering what the hell is leaking

Keep us posted, we'll track it down

[hwg]

Thanks everyone,

so i just had a look in the daylight, and i still cant see any colour in the header tank.- the plastic is completely opaque though, so no light in there at all doesn't seem to be any less in there than there was yesterday. the PAS fluid reservoir dipstick shows the correct level, actually slightly above the "cold" mark, but its on a downhill slope.

i found the leak, its now a tiny drip every couple of seconds coming from somewhere near the oil dipstick. to the left of the turbo (looking from the front) there's a small gap through which i can see a large rubber hose with jubilee clip. this seems to be connected to the coolant system.

i cant be sure its coming from there, as i can only see the drip from the underside of the car, and i can't get my hand in to feel if the underside of the pipe is wet. picture below shows what I'm talking about.

whereistheleak_small.jpg

[Fredjohn]

Sounds like it's the top end of the bottom hose where it connects to the engine.

Take a look at the parts manual Cooling System Page: P46.01A, item 20 or 22 depending on spec.

See if you can tighten the jubilee clip and hope that is all it is. Also have a look from underneath.

However the water pump is also in that area, but is more likely to leak at the bottom of the cambelt covers as it is behind that cover. Check that isn't the case too. If it is the pump, then it's a combined cambelt and pump change: you might as well when you are in there!

Good luck

PS add your location to your profile so members will know where you are. Help might be round the corner!

[norman lovie]

you've got a metal coolant pipe that runs behind the turbo infront of the block - run the engine for some time with inadequate anti freeze and this pipe amongst others will rot from the inside ( especially if you use tap water) -- hoping its not this pipe, its a bit of a bugger to get to

[hwg]

so, an update!

I've had the car at a garage, and the guy renewed* the large pipe where i've pictured above, and a few other places.
he thought the leak was coming from somewhere else though, and running down the pipe.
he thought maybe the water pump, but he has added something to the coolant reservoir and it appears to be fixed.

*renewed means cleaning the rubber up with a stanley knife i think.

I'll keep an eye on it, and have it looked at in the summer when its due a service, but it all seems ok

also, the cold weather is lifting, its sunny outside!