New topics discussion.

[RayD]

.

When I came across the following thread on Wednesday 18/2/15 I only clicked on it to suggest the title ought to be more descriptive.

I didn't realise I'd missed a bit of excitement

It now seems this, and an associated thread have been since removed.

i dont see
Postby tobyholland » 18 Feb 2015, 10:00

I don't see any of the qustions asked on here any more or less relevant than the question I asked on tubo heat shields, if a moderator take exception through his personal and prejudice views ,then that's childish and a problem he has with his personality ,not me .
But it does make you wonder weather Lotus cars and older Lotus cars are worth the time and trouble of keeping up together ,I have never experienced these issues on tr6 forum as the tvr forum ,and the Ferrari owners forum.
Is this something inherent of Colin Chapman "I DONT THINK SO"

Five or six years ago I had an email exchange with Neil (Enright) about new threads and while I couldn’t disagree with his idea more if I tried, I went along with it and haven’t started a new one since.

I can’t imagine why people get upset or frustrated when someone asks a question that has been asked before or the answer of which could be found in the manual.

There will be Élan owners who are not quite so good at rooting though information, they may not be able to read or write to the extent others do, or be capable of seeing a relationship between someone else’s problem and their own, particularly when it’s described differently.

There are plenty of forums where they encourage people to make a “New Post” every time. It seemingly makes for shorter threads and more search options, and the members are just as friendly and helpful as they are on here.

The idea will lessen the amount of involvement people have with LEC.

It is a view almost certainly held by a minority. I think it started as something that seemed mildly amusing, and as got out of hand.

Taken to its extreme where everyone agreed with it and refused to answer questions that might have been asked before, or could easily be found in the manual, LEC would turn into a “chat room” or whatever the technical phase is. All the technical questions would have been answered.

Ray

Post by Enright

*I* deleted the post because in the past:

On more than one occasion I've politely ASKED the original poster not to scatterbomb the forum with new topics (as per this post which fully explains why).
I've then TOLD him to use the search facility (which works much better if things are spelt correctly) and add to existing topics.
Finally out of exasperation I've WARNED him that if he doesn't, then further instances will be deleted.

Quite simply, if such people could be bothered to download and read the freely available manuals then they wouldn't need spoon-feeding every time they attempt a simple job. If a car needs that much attention, they could (like I did) easily start a project thread to show people their progress, invite opinions and assistance, and keep all of their issues in the one place. Surely anyone can see the benefits that this offers with any fault-finding when problems occur, because potentially helpful people then don't have to trawl through multiple threads to work out what has already been done.

If simple guidelines can't (or won't) be observed, and if those concerned start banding about wild accusations or some extremely unsavoury terms when they don't instantly get what they want, then more serious measures will have to be taken.

As the requested information has now been provided, this thread has served it's purpose so I am locking it, pending future deletion to remove the bad taste.

and ...


Please can you think twice before starting any new topics?

With so many people on here who have been running so many cars for so long, it's very rare that anyone will find a completely new problem.
Therefore with a bit of searching the answer to your particular issue should be available.
And if it's not, there's almost certainly a relevant thread that you can add your particular question to.

If we have multiple threads about the same (or closely related) issue it just gets confusing. Then when someone asks about a similar thing in months to come, you don't stand a chance of directing them to the right place for the answer (which I do quite often).
So while it might appear like a bit of a trivial moan, ultimately it has quite an effect on the quality of information available for everyone.

Thanks!

[Simon_P]

Ray,

I quite agree.

On a forum for cars that have been out of production for twenty years original problems must be rare. But new problems to an individual must be very common.

I wasn't aware that we had such a rule! How would I know if my question was not sufficiently original? Who decides?

Besides which there are many new solutions to old problems, which won't get added if noone asks the old question again.

Seems strange to me - I thought the purpose of a forum was to ask a question if you had one.

[epipete]

I know that I'm as guilty as anyone but the proper process should include a system that creates and updates the various scenarios in the wiki, but that is time consuming and somewhat cumbersome, I do try to search before posting but often want some currency and confidence that my issue is understood so realtime is a benifit to me.

A couple of years ago I drove a couple of hundred miles, parked up, noticed water gushing out of the car below the drivers seat. I retired to a pub with WiFi and put up a request for advice, purchased a pint and before I'd had a sip Of my beer was in receipt of various responses offering valuable advice. This is what is great about it!!!

Pete

[RayD]

Thanks Simon and Pete,

The content of the 'I don't see' post by tobyholland has nothing to do with the point I'm making ... it just happened to be on an assosiated locked and since removed thread that Neil reminded me of how strongly he feels about the subject of new topics.

I feel just as strongly that the subject should be viewed in an entirely different way.

I think people should be encouraged to ask anything they like regardless of whether the question as been asked before, how trivial it may seem or how easily the information might be found in the manual.

Ray

[dapinky]

At fear of provoking a response which may be inflamatory.....

....ah, sod it, I'm here now.....

I can see both sides of the arguement, and personally, (whilst I'd never critisize another Mod for moderating as they see fit, as long as the Admins are happy with the way the Forum is being 'managed', at least a few of us are doing something - and all singing from the same hymn sheet of trying to make this a user-friendly place for all) I don't have a huge issue with questions being asked.

I can see the annoyance of multiple (duplicate) threads from the same poster at the same time, and I can see the advantage of everything being in a new thread as it leads to shorter topics, and more search results.....

...however, it is a double-edged sword as it takes far more managing, and as such it is possible that something important would be missed, or something inappropriate would be published.

Also, it would take up far more server space, and many of the Forums who run such a policy have an annual subscription to fund the extra costs, and to pay a 'wage' to their Moderators - not the LEC way!

As anyone who knows me (in reality, or virtuality) would hopefully agree, MY personal bugbear is the manner of language used in posts, and the attitude of the poster - I'm all for Freedom of Speach, and have stood on a cold South Atlantic rock with a gun in my hand to defend YOUR right to use it. I then spent over 30 years ensuring that people did not abuse the priviledge of that Freedom.

These principles are right both Legally, and Morally - and I don't care if you disagree with me (as is your right!) - and if YOU want to risk the wrath of the English Courts (very tongue-in-cheek!), that's up to you - BUT YOU AIN'T DOING IT ON THIS FORUM.

I have only ever removed posts which breach the simple (like me) rules of Common Decency - and would prefer to give the original poster an opportunity to edit, change or delete their own material (even if it needs an open forum prompt or two to follow up my initial PM contact).

Pete,
I would never critisise anyone who has an 'emergency' breakdown from getting help where they can - i've done the same in a car park when my elan got stuck in 5th gear a few years ago - soon assisted by Specky, and back on the road in half an hour.

The simple fact remains, though - if someone continually fails to meet whatever standards are 'requested', then something *may* get done about it.....

.... Ultimately, if the same question keeps coming up continually, eventually people will stop bothering to re-answer the questions posed, and the poster won't get an (accurate?) answer anyway.... no-one wants to keep answering the same question (especially if it needs quite a detailed essay to explain) - and it is often easier to refer to an earlier post I have made, than to re-write the answer - this I feel is the optimal solution as it directs the poster to an answer, and encourages them to read the other thread to increase knowledge (and possibly educates on the use of the Search facility, and/or the presence of the Wiki)

.... And if 'Unacceptable' behaviour becomes allowed, then many people will decide that they no longer feel comfortable in the environment, and good people will be lost as they no longer feel that the Forum meets their needs/expectations of civility.

[maz_r]

My (very firmly stressing the 'my') 2p on this...

Repeatedly starting new threads to ask a question that has been answered many times before is quite understandable since, as previously mentioned, we aren't all wizards with the search facility and I am confident that I have done exactly that before. However, there are a couple of issues I can see with this:

It is (huge generalisation) quite often the same souls who post answers and I'm confident it starts to grate when you repeatedly have to write lengthy responses; and referring to a previous thread means you have to find it and point the querier (think I may have just made that word up!) to it which takes time as well; I am personally slightly concerned that the flow of answers might dry up. Maybe my fears are unfounded.

Posting a question regarding a subject that is easily found and does answer the question is, again, quite understandable but it is possible to get an impression (correctly or incorrectly) that the poster just can't be bothered and that their time is much better spent getting someone else to answer the question rather than spend their own time doing a bit of research....

Regarding the 'new answers to old questions' point, surely we should be engendering a culture of posting an update to an existing thread that says 'hey all - I have just discovered xyz is a better way to fix abc'; not sure why it should have to wait until someone asks a question?

(And I'm not even going to enquire why this discussion is happening on a thread entitled 'SD Memory Card' )

[dapinky]

(And I'm not even going to enquire why this discussion is happening on a thread entitled 'SD Memory Card' )

Ah, I believe that the answer to that one is.....

.... Ray raised a point, but did it on a thread which he started in an 'Off Topic(ish)' area....

...as it's HIS thread, he can say and ask whatever he wants, without being accused of a Hi-jack....

.... and if anyone wishes to answer/post on it, they can do....

(subject to all playing nicely! )

[Simon_P]

Dave,

I don't believe anyone has criticised moderation of inappropriate or offensive language. Neither is there any question that both society and the law impose certain constraints. Legal, moral, good taste or otherwise, I think we all agree that there is a need for moderation. Please could we move away from that discussion as we all seem to be in agreement, while missing Ray's point.

Regarding the 'new answers to old questions' point, surely we should be engendering a culture of posting an update to an existing thread that says 'hey all - I have just discovered xyz is a better way to fix abc'; not sure why it should have to wait until someone asks a question?

Maz-r,
I took my engine out recently and currently have it in pieces, how would I ever know if any of my actions were of use to someone else? Should I comment on all engine related threads?
The updates that I do post usually result from a new thread with the help and input from others.

[RayD]

First of all no-one thinks I’m promoting unacceptable behaviour.

I’m not promoting the idea of individuals making multiple posts with the same question under different headings at the same time in order to get more attention.

It’s unfortunate I chose a thread to highlight Neil’s stance on new topics that I was later told was the subject of a quite different LEC problem, nothing at all to do with new topics. Inevitably, the people involved will use this thread to drive their point home about the other.

...however, it is a double-edged sword as it takes far more managing, and as such it is possible that something important would be missed, or something inappropriate would be published ... Also, it would take up far more server space ...

Thanks for answering Dave,

I have no idea how these things effect server capacity and if it is the case that a new thread instantly takes up far more space than the same amount of keystrokes applied to an existing thread then I might have to put up with it for another six years and drop the whole idea.

I do know about managing and it doesn’t make any difference to the likelihood of something important being missed or the possibility of something inappropriate being published.

.... Ultimately, if the same question keeps coming up continually, eventually people will stop bothering to re-answer the questions posed, and the poster won't get an (accurate?) answer anyway.... no-one wants to keep answering the same question (especially if it needs quite a detailed essay to explain) - and it is often easier to refer to an earlier post I have made, than to re-write the answer - this I feel is the optimal solution as it directs the poster to an answer, and encourages them to read the other thread to increase knowledge (and possibly educates on the use of the Search facility, and/or the presence of the Wiki)

People are affected by things in different ways; it doesn’t bother me in the slightest how many times different people ask the same question. I will have answered the question about high tick over dozens of times. I don’t know anyone who is likely to stop bothering to re-answer the questions posed. Quite apart from people being helpful I’m sure they get an amount of pleasure from being asked.

I understand your point about increasing knowledge and education but certain types of people will do this anyway. There’ll be some people who have been members for years who have yet to write their first word on the forum but are still benefitting from it.

And I'm not even going to enquire why this discussion is happening on a thread entitled 'SD Memory Card'

Thank you for your input Maz,

Dave nearly has it right about the SD Memory Card thread ...

Only ... it is actually someone else’s thread ... Monty’s I think ... I have been using it for six years when I need to pick Geoff’s, Dave’s or Tony’s brains about something ... in preference to starting a New Topic.

Ray

[GeoffSmith]

I think that Neil's gripe is more with the situation we had a few years ago when a lot of people would post the same (frequently asked and replied) question within a short space of time in different topic areas, presumably because nobody has solved their problem within 5 minutes. I agree wholeheartedly with this approach as it was tiresome!

The Wiki was set up to help people find answers to their problems and provided people have at least tried to solve their problems, I see no problem in asking for help. Asking politely and introducing yourself if you have not posted before will usually elicit more help but posting "how do pimp ma weals innit" on a dozen disparate threads will usually spur Captain Xerox into action.

[RayD]

Simon,

We were posting at the same time ... I wrote and posted mine before I read yours, I don't want you thinking the first line refers to you.

Ray

[RayD]

Thank you Geoff I agree with you entirely,

While it started years ago it is continuing to this day. I am hoping Neil will change his mind.

Ray

[Simon_P]

I have no idea how these things effect server capacity and if it is the case that a new thread instantly takes up far more space than the same amount of keystrokes applied to an existing thread then I might have to put up with it for another six years and drop the whole idea.

Ray, My (limited ) understanding is that each post is recorded in a database, and the database is referenced according to the links to the ID. So assuming that a post added to an existing thread will receive the same number of answers as a new thread the difference is negligible.

Databases that forums run on have far more grunt than required to run our little old forum.

[dapinky]

Ray (and Simon),

My not-so-limited knowledge is that it DOES take up more space (as to how much more, I'll come on to that!)...

....One way to explain it is to consider a Forum to be a building - inside that building there are various floors, and on each floor there are seperate rooms (the floors can be considered to be the 'Group Headings', and the rooms as 'Topics').....

Now, you can keep adding new threads into topics until the room gets full - but the full room may well be full of 'filing cabinets', some of which may only hold 1 or 2 A4 folders, but if more folders are stuck into each cabinet, the 'room' is no fuller, but there is far more information stored within it (does that make sense?).

The software on which the Forum is build (BBphp3) sets a default size for each room (and whilst I'm sure that it can be altered by someone!) it is what it is.... There is no 'maximum' size, but there is a 'minimum' one - and if there is only one file in there it still takes up the same physical size.

Going to the analogy of a building - if all of the rooms are full, then we would need a bigger building, but if all the files are optimised into the filing cabinets, the whole building would appear to be more empty.

If every time you wished to store some information you just stuck a new a filing cabinet into the 'correct' room, it would fill up far quicker than adding an A4 box file to an existing filing cabinet.

With a building, once it is full you have options - extend it, tidy it up and amalgamate information, or throw stuff away - or just buy a 'storage unit' elsewhere which your customers think is part of the original building, and it really doesn't matter where it is...

...this Forum is hosted on a (huge) server, which in itself can hold a lot of information - but we don't own it, and we are allocated an amount of space (I don't know how much we have, or if the amount can be changed, but I could find out if really necessary).

The point being, it is 'gifted' to us, and common decency dictates that we shouldn't abuse that priviledge, or take the p1$$ by overflowing unnecessarily.

When this Forum was first started, it was down to the phillanthropic attitude of the founder (who paid all server hosting fees, domain name rental fees etc etc himself) - this was considered unreasonable by 'the management' and hence the LEC Kitty was born to fund such things, and each member (or not!) donated what they saw fit in accordance with their own conscience - no fixed membership fees were implemented.

There is still an ongoing drain on the kitty (whilst the 'hosting' fees may have diminished, the right to use the lotuselancentral.com name still needs to be paid for - no-one can 'own' ANY domain name, but they are 'rented' by the 5 geographic Internet Providers - and depending on the name you want, depends on the cost of rental. The right to use the Domain Name is transferable/saleable and it is a fully registered system.

Technically, there is no need to have a name for a website - the computer system doesn't read names - only numbers...... the 'magic box' just looks at what you type in (lotuselancentral.com), looks in its database and relises that the website you want is actually 109.108.143.5, then looks in the mapping system to see where that is hosted, then sends you to that location - all in the blink of an eye!

If we didn't want to 'rent' the name, we could just use the IP address and still find the forum - however, everyone would need the IP number, and Google wouldn't find the forum on a search (this is the basic principle behind what is known as the 'Deep Web' where only those 'in the know' can get to certain information).

...Anyway, back to our 'building' - no matter how much space we own/rent/borrow, there is still only one road to it, and depending on how much traffic uses the road, affects EVERYONE on the trading estate - so, again, good housekeeping is necessary to keep the total traffic within the available bandwidth - should we start to take up more than our share of the system, to the detrement of the server owners' business, then I can only imagine what may/will happen to 'our' space.

Of course, all of this can be increased to an (almost) unlimited capacity and speed - but there would be a substantial financial cost, which takes me back to an earlier post - you get what you pay for, we pay nowt, so should expect nowt! (but it still needs to be kept tidy).

[HJ2]

I am SO glad i use Compact Flash and not SD cards....

[RayD]

Thanks for the explanation Dave,

Server capacity has never been mentioned as a reason for not starting a new topic before now.

I’m not going to get anywhere trying to convince you.

I’ll make an effort to avoid answering repeated questions.

I'd better pack in before my only adopted thread gets locked

Ray

[dapinky]

Ray,

Please don't go!

As stated - I personally have NO PROBLEM with repeat questions 'per sae' - but do get niggled by multiple threads asking the same question by the same poster at the same time.

If I see those, I have been known to amalgamate them, but otherwise don't worry about it.

I am happy to answer whatever questions I can, but occassionally, have been known to choose NOT to answer something (usually due to lack of time at the moment of reading the question) - and by the time I come back, it's either been resolved or whatever (the benefit of having a bit of spare time is that I look on the forum at various times of day, and have sufficient free time to write things in a verbose fashion.

I'm NOT syaing that lack of server space is a huge issue to us, but I was answering the question as to why seperate topics take up more space than continuing ones.

But I DO feel that we owe the server owners the common decency to not abuse the space they allow us to have, and good housekeeping is a part of that.

[nicowalker1]

I've just scan read through the previous page.

I am often guilty of asking what may be deemed as stupid repeat questions. I personally find the seach a pain in the arse to trawl through. If people don't like the questions being asked they simply should not answer them. In 2015 I really don't believe server space should be an issue. As for 'it is in the manual section' answer, I believe you can't beat peoples personal experience, after all, the manual was aimed at a garage with every tool required at the mechanics disposal.

I am tired and hung over so this is probably just a load of bollocks

Thanks for reading

Edited with the addition of apostrophes.
Ps it is a pain on an Ipad!

[RayD]

Dave,

I’ve known you long enough to realise your views on the subject won’t differ much from mine.

I was trying to get Neil to change his mind, or at least drop the campaign for a trial period and see how it goes.

Neil seems to be of the opinion that people should not start a new topic to ask a question that may have already been asked. He thinks they should try to find the answer themselves and failing that ask the question on a related thread ... giving the reason - it makes it easier for him and others to find and direct them to the answer.

The LEC administration seems to go along with it. (I can understand the need for harmony)

I think ... as I said earlier,

“There will be Élan owners who are not quite so good at rooting though information, they may not be able to read or write to the extent others do, or be capable of seeing a relationship between someone else’s problem and their own, particularly when it’s described differently.”

I think people ought to be able to ask what they like, and I originally thought it would be better on a new, short thread which could simply be deleted if it was deemed no use to others in future.

By coincidence when I first started on LEC, Neil kindly answered my first post, fortunately no-one had asked it before or I might not have been here now.

Ray

[GeoffSmith]

Just to get it in perspective. The word could on this thread of 7 pages is about 60,000 characters. By way of a very approximate comparison, the picture of the Lotus trainers is about 60kB. Talk is comparatively cheap!

Nike trainers !.jpg