Fuel Leaks, Seized Brakes, Water in Footwell - 1st 1000miles

[dapinky]

Hmmm, it looks like those well-known mechanics "Bodgit & Scarper" have been looking after your car.....

The 'fuel' hose that was fitted is obviously NOT fuel line, but just a bit of rubber hose (coolant hoses and fuel hoses are totally different materials - coolant hoses don't need to be oil resistant - fuel ones do!) - extremely lucky not to loose the car in a fire (and even worse if it had been in a garage attached to a house ).

The coolant is OAT antifreeze which shouldn't be used on cars before 1998 as it doesn't like Copper, Brass and (some of them) Zinc - this is supported by the bits of copper you have found in the header tank...

...depending on where it has come from will depend on what damage has been caused - it may be bits of the radiator end tanks, or (more woryingly?) bits of the head gasket - only a really good strip/rebuild of the engine will tell you.... possibly from the heater matrix or Thermostat - both of which *may* contain the metals that OAT eats??

I would advise flushing through with plenty of water (leave a hose pipe running with a main hose removed), then replace the hoses and run it up to normal temperature with just plain water in and see if you have any leaks - little point in filling with Glycol antifreeze if it will need to be drained again. Once you are happy with the stsyem, then drain and re-fil with the correct dilution of antifreeze.

[Danny R]

Following your advice Dave, last weekend I drained all the coolant from the car and flushed it all in with the hose pipe the best I could. Lots of the silt and coppery particles came out at first. I've tried to run the hose through the block, but I don't know how much I'll have got with the thermostat shut.

I'm going to replace the thermostat, but Halfords don't list the HTK602 from WikiLEC and the QTH100K brings up all sorts of thermostats that aren't those. I'll see if my local Halfords has one still in old stock, but GSF car parts didn't list one for the Elan until I type in "QTH100K" into their search box and it then decided it had two suitable for the Elan!

I went to get some engine flush yesterday from Northern Radiators in Leeds, I use Forte Bio-Degreaser, it's expensive but good stuff. I also mention the old OAT coolant problem and he sold me 5 litres of Prestone. He told me they sell it because it will mix with anything (old coolant wise) and is compatible with every cooling system type....EVER! It does more-or-less claim this in the blurb too.

When I got it home the 1st thing I noticed is, is that's OAT too! Then I found some stuff on-line saying it's nowhere near a compatible as they claim, so back to the drawing board on that one.

I've done a little research on here and through my service history and the fuel line was changed by the owner before last (front to back return pipe), although he doesn't say why. And as Dave points out, it's not fuel line at all, it's just rubber hose and is buggered it's entire length, I think I'm lucky not to have had a fire. The sort piece of rubber pipe replacing the correct formed, nylon pipe, (tank to fuel filter) which I'm trying to obtain now, was fitted by a well known Lotus specialist for the bargain amount of £70! 12" of pipe and 3 hose clips! At least that is proper fuel pipe though.

So, at the minute progress is sparse and taking time.

[Danny R]

Progress re-started today, with thanks to Phil (surfboardfiller), who provided me with the pump to filter pipe I've been struggling with. To say things went from bad to s**t is an understatement though;

I cleaned up Phil's pipe, cleaned and repainted the fuel filter bracket and re-fitted the lot with a new filter. I put a gallon of fuel in the car and after a bit of cranking she fired up and purred beautifully. I didn't run it long as there's no coolant in there at the minute, that was my next job. I'd already flushed and reverse flushed all the crap out of the cooling system and because I'm a bit anal I've bought some cooling system degreaser and cleanser.

I put the bottom hose back on the radiator and filled the system with water and Forte Biodegreaser. I ran it on fast idle for 1/2 hour as the instructions tell you to, but as I got towards the fans kicking in the bottom hose from the expansion tank blew off and sprayed everything in citrus smelling foam. I assumed I'd not tightened it up right, put it back on and tried again. Run it on fast idle for half an hour and the temp moved between 1/2 and 3/4 scale with the fans kicking in with no further calamities (although one of my fans sounds like an air-raid siren).

The biodegreaser did a good job and the colour of the water I removed pleased me I'd achieved something. I then went on to replace the thermostat and flush out the remaining biodegreaser. I fitted a new gasket, cleaned the old gasket faces and put a bit of gasket paste on for good measure. I put everything back together and re-filled with 50% Comma G48 coolant/water mix. I started the engine and allowed it to warm up gently. Rather annoyingly my thermostat housing is weeping, but nothing major.

I though I'd open the bleedscrew underneath the passenger side headlamp, but for some reason my lights are popping up anymore now, just lighting up facing down.

Right, this is where things get shitter: I decided I wanted to spin the car around on the drive so started to do a 3 point turn. As I moved the car back and forth to do this there was a loud sloshing sound and my newly dried passenger footwell filled up with a small torrent of water that appears to have come in the box steel section in the A post behind the fuse box and the door corner. It's not all come out and as I drive to-and-fro on the driveway I can hear it sloshing around somewhere.

Whilst doing this, with the temp gauge on 1/2 way and the fans not kicked in at all yet, steam started pouring in though the dash vents and out of the bonnet. When I lifted the bonnet the pressure cap has been blown off the expansion tank and half of my expensive G48 blown all over the engine bay. The Thermostat housing seemed alright though.

So, didn't get chance to bleed it all anyway.

At this point I was F##cked of and went inside and left it.

Any ideas anyone - have I done something stupid?

[muley]

..welcome to my world.

Re the water in the sills a bulletin came out detailing how holes should be driilled in the sill to let water out.

Maybe the filler cap was past it best and decided to let go. Might be worth trying again.. ..just use cheap antifreeze/coolant, though



Jim

[epipete]

..welcome to my world.

And mine

Keep at it it'll all workout in the end!!!

[tb10]

..welcome to my world.

Re the water in the sills a bulletin came out detailing how holes should be driilled in the sill to let water out.

Jim

Hi Jim

Do you have a link to the bulletin please?

Regards


John

[Brit-Car-Nut]

It is linked in this post.

Or directly at http://www.lotusm100.com/manuals/Water- ... dendum.pdf

Or the entire list of manuals and common information: www.lotusm100.com/manuals

[Danny R]

I've already seen the bulletin regarding the sill drainage, that's on the 'back burner' at the minute!

Today, with fresh enthusiasm, I went out to tackle the cooling system again. I started with the thermostat housing a discovered I'd made the schoolboy error of not fitting in the recess in the block properly. I thought I had, but I'd clearly clamped it in it's housing's mating faces. I put all this right and made myself a new gasket and refitted, NOW; Ive fitted the thermostat with the dome towards the radiator hose as per the picture here:

http://www.lotuselancentral.com/repair/thermostat.htm

but when I removed the old one yesterday, it was the other way around and I assumed fitted incorrectly (the dome was in the block with the brass waxstat and spring towards the top rad hose).

Anyway, all leaks here are gone. Refilled with coolant and started the car. Bleed the air out of the top of the radiation (under the headlamp pod). With the engine cold and the thermostat shut, when you rev the engine the coolant level in the tank goes from the cold level and rises dramatically. I didn't want to rev it too much because that's why I think the cap went yesterday. You only have to hold moderate revs to fill the expansion tank. This changes when the thermostat opens, the level returns to something more normal and the coolant enters the tank through the top hose when you rev it and the level is pretty stable.
I left it sat on the drive ticking over till the radiator fans come in and it's fine. When you stop the engine and let it cool, the same process happens again until the thermostat opens.

I've tried an old filler cap (black) from the spares I got with the car and the cooling system never pressured (no release of pressure when you remove the cap). I reverted back to the one that was fitted, a yellow Topran part. That does build up pressure, but that's the one that blew off yesterday. I don't like Topran either, they're rubbish aftermarket tat. Either cap though, the symptoms are the same until the thermostat opens.

Have I fitted the thermostat wrong? Should there be a bypass to prevent system over pressurisation when the thermostat is shut?

I was starting to think my head gasket is on the way out again but I removed the plugs and done a warm compression test. All cylinders are 12Bar (170psi). They're all bang on the same.
The plugs look like this:



No more leaking fuel though!!!
I'm realise a new set of plugs wont hurt either. I'll service the car when I'm a bit happier with it.

I've taken a video of the coolant tank that I'll try posting later in the week.

[muley]

You might want to try a sniffer test kit - using a sample from the header tank you can see if there are combustion gases getting in there (duff head gasket) - this doesn't ring true with good compressions, though.



Jim

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I've already seen the bulletin regarding the sill drainage, that's on the 'back burner' at the minute!

I put all this right and made myself a new gasket and refitted, NOW; Ive fitted the thermostat with the dome towards the radiator hose as per the picture here:

http://www.lotuselancentral.com/repair/thermostat.htm

Danny: When you put the thermostat in, did you make sure the bleed hole was at the top?

When installed, looking straight on at the thermostat, it should look like this: (obviously, not still in the wrapper)

Stat-placement.jpg

The wax portion should be toward the engine, the "hoop" should be toward the hose and the hole should be at the top to keep the chamber full up to the bleed hole.

[Simon_P]

And it should be an eccentric one as in John's picture.

[Danny R]

I fitted a Quinten Hazel QTH100K, as per the WikiLEC.

It has no bleed hole, nor is it eccentric.

Here are the some pictures I took of the old one, which is identical:




You can just make out in the bottom photo, there is a 'v' notch in valve seat, I'm assuming this could be the bleed. I did notice on the new thermostat but I took no notice of it's orientation.

Do you guys thick it's possible this bleed could be the cause of my warm up over-pressurisation? I'm thinking of ordering a expansion cap and thermostat from Lotus.

[tb10]

It is linked in this post.

Or directly at http://www.lotusm100.com/manuals/Water- ... dendum.pdf

Or the entire list of manuals and common information: http://www.lotusm100.com/manuals

Perfect Brit Car.

Many thanks.

regards

John

[Danny R]

You might want to try a sniffer test kit - using a sample from the header tank you can see if there are combustion gases getting in there (duff head gasket) - this doesn't ring true with good compressions, though.



Jim

Well, I've followed your advice and done a 'sniff' test Jim and now I'm completely stumped:

For those who're interested here's a boring 10 minute video in which nothing happens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVQ5j_HzTcs

Basically the test passed even when run for 5 times longer than you should. Also when I'd just finished the test, the tank overflowed again and spewed my coolant all over the floor......again!

It left this is the header tank:


I'm more concerned now that there's still crap in the system after a good flush. I'm gonna try a new, proper Lotus, cap and thermostat. It also it seems, need a new electric pump on top of all this.
I've also just discovered my turbo wastegate seems to be stuck!
Wondering if I've got something blocked because the service manual states when the thermostat is shut the bypass is through the heater matrix, turbo and throttle body and returns to the pump through the steel pipe on the front of the block, they don't seem blocked.

HELP!

I hope the rest of you are enjoying last weeks top down weather btw.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I fitted a Quinten Hazel QTH100K, as per the WikiLEC.

It has no bleed hole, nor is it eccentric.

Do you guys thick it's possible this bleed could be the cause of my warm up over-pressurisation? I'm thinking of ordering a expansion cap and thermostat from Lotus.

There are at least two thermostats listed on Rock Auto that are 180 degrees and egg shaped: GATES Part # 33478 or # 33478S and STANT Part # 13858 or # 45858. The second number is for their higher quality SuperStat line.

RA shows the 195 degree stat as the normal fitment but that is because most companies started using that temperature to get the engine up to temperature quicker and most companies found emissions were reduced if they got the "choke" or cold start system to turn off sooner.

The reason for being offset is the wax bulb needs to be fully submerged at all times to work correctly. The jiggle pin is to prevent a pressure pocket from forming behind the thermostat and lowering the coolant level around the wax bulb.

When was the last time the waterpump was replaced?

Any chance the impeller / blade is damaged, broken or disconnected? There were some pumps with plastic impellers that had them stretch when the engine overheated and they fell off the shaft which continued to rotate as normal but there was nothing inside that was actually pumping the water.

[Danny R]

When was the last time the waterpump was replaced?

Any chance the impeller / blade is damaged, broken or disconnected? There were some pumps with plastic impellers that had them stretch when the engine overheated and they fell off the shaft which continued to rotate as normal but there was nothing inside that was actually pumping the water.

In my service history, the owner before last (Kenich on here), bought a Beck/Arnley 131-2115 Water Pump from Rock Auto in March 2010. He had that fitted by a well know Lotus specialist over here with all new belts and tensioners. A lot of the history for my car is from this specialist and I'm starting to think they're not as good as folk think, but I'll keep my opinions to myself on that.

So, in answer to your question it's had a pump fairly recently but how good that pump is I don't know. The bill also has "RAD STOP LEAK" itemised in the parts section, don't like the sound of that but it since seems to have had a new alloy radiator too.

I'll look into these thermostats - thanks for the info.

If the pump has failed water seems to flow when the thermostat is open as coolant feeds back into the top of the tank. Could that be convection?
I know I need an electric pump now as it only works when it's cold for a few minutes, gets slower the more it runs until it stops, and won't work again until it's cooled down.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Researching the BA 131 2115 pump shows pictures with a cast impeller. That is usually a good thing but the design is a bit funky: not like other cast impellers I am familiar with.

I am not sure I would consider 5 years to be "fairly recently", but I tend to be overly cautious.

The electric pump is there to cool down the Turbo so it isn't a factor with your current problem - BUT you need to replace/repair it ASAP.

What did the stop-leak fix? Any mention as to why it was added on the work-order? I don't see how the bypass would work through the heater matix if the heater valve is closed and it is possible the other returns have been compromised by corrosion or agressive stop leak use.

Since it isn't going to be below freezing anymore, I would suggest testing with plain water so you don't keep making a horrible mess. There should not be huge changes in the water level in the "overflow/header" tank. It should go down a bit when the engine runs and the thermostat opens - to fill the voids above the tank height - but not to the extremes you are describing. You should be able to run the engine with the pressure cap off and have minimal changes in the tank's water level before starting, while running and after shutting down. The pressure system is only there to raise the temperature where the coolant boils and an unstressed engine should never boil when just running in the driveway.

I would get the correct thermostat and install it the right way around and if that doesn't change anything, pull the radiator for an inspection and if that provides no issues, pull the water pump to see if anything has gone wrong.

The amount of pressure you are experiencing certainly suggests a situation where compression is getting into the cooling system - OR - the cooling system is plugged so it is not circulating and the small quantity near the hot section of the engine is boiling right away and it is not being cooled by the radiator, so quickly becoming steam.

[Simon_P]

Stop leak will be what the copper coloured flakes are.

I notice that you have a new header tank - Do you have a yellow cap? how tight can you do it up?

[Danny R]

I am not sure I would consider 5 years to be "fairly recently", but I tend to be overly cautious

Maybe not, but in mileage terms it's covered nothing. You've got me thinking a timing belt change will be due so it may be worth replacing.

What did the stop-leak fix? Any mention as to why it was added on the work-order?

Nothing, It's just been added as a sundry item. I'm assuming the radiator was knackered as a new aluminium has been fitted since.

I would get the correct thermostat and install it the right way around

That's my next move. Seeing as I've already lost half of my coolant I'm gonna make sure some of the narrower water passages (throttle body, turbo) aren't blocked too. I'm starting to think it's a circulation problem due to the way it suddenly overflows, the coolant isn't that hot, it's like some of it's boiling and the pressure is pushing it out as it vents. With a head gasket failure I'd expect a steady pressure increase in the system, but it's not like that. It's abrupt and goes like a geyser.

I notice that you have a new header tank - Do you have a yellow cap? how tight can you do it up?

The new header tank and cap were fitted by the company that did my head gasket. They're Topran parts. It is a yellow cap and it will slip on the threads if you try and go too tight. It also doesn't hold that well because it blew the cap completely off rather than vent as it should when it over-pressurised last time. I've seen alot of Topran parts, I've had some classic VW's as well and they seem to produce alot of those parts too. Despite peddling the German quality aspect, I find them to be shite. They usually are not a straight forward replacement and if it does work you'll be back to square one in 12 months.

[Danny R]

I went and ordered a thermostat and pressure relief cap from Lotus. The thermostat came in an unbranded box (AFM logo on it though I think), but it is an eccentric, 82deg with the joggle pin just like BCN's picture.
The pressure relief cap is yellow, but at least it doesn't say Topran on it.

Last week I disconnected lots of hoses and checked for blockages and flushed through with the garden hose. I discovered that the heater matrix shut of valve is a bit corroded so I ordered the Volvo one from Braydon Motors and fitted that. I also discovered there's been a minor blockage on the turbo coolant feed, there was no flow and I had to pressurise it with a air line, it went with a bit of a pop and then the coolant ran clear. I also replaced the electric coolant pump with one from eBay whilst everything was in bits.

This week I've put it all together and refilled with coolant. When I started the engine I thought nothing had really changed. With the engine cool and thermostat closed, the tank level rises and almost fills the tank, this time though it isn't filling and isn't blowing the cap. It is getting level with top feed to the expansion tank, where it seems to flow back down to the radiator side of the thermostat housing. When the thermostat opens, the tank level drops a bit, but is above the cold fill level, and there is flow in the other direction up the upper (thermostat housing to top expansion tank) hose.

Anyway, I daren't drive it anywhere yet and my Elan has always seemed to have done this, is this right?

Something's definitely different though as before I don't remember the metal turbo coolant pipe getting hot at all, and now it's toasty even before the thermostat opens.

Still got the water getting into the footwell and seized handbrake to sort!