proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgrade'

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proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgrade'

Postby dapinky » Sun 17.08.2014, 11:35

LONG POST ALERT - if you're easily bored, give up now :D

The cheapest rear-brake upgrade you’ll ever see.

Well, this is something I have been thinking about for a long time (and even put some of my thoughts into other threads where I thought them to be relevant)…..

…but now I’ve actually done something about it, and time will tell if I consider it to be worthwhile (from an ‘improvement’ point of view) – or at least an alternative to Lotus parts which are proportionally quite expensive.

The desire for doing this was based on a number of factors, mainly to get the brakes as good as possible (with standard callipers), whilst still keeping the ‘correct’ front/rear balance.

I’ll start with the usual disclaimer – I AM NOT AN ENGINEER. But I am a fairly competent home mechanic, with qualifications in Physics, Metallurgy, Mathematics, Vehicle Examination, Forensic Examination (and others which are irrelevant to this thread) – and I can read / research things on t’internet!

Next, the usual theoretical statements (which are actually facts, not theory)…

1) Brakes are working at their optimum retardation just before the wheels lock up (so we don’t want the wheels to lock, just nearly lock).
2) On a dry road, the stopping distance is actually minimised if you DO lock the wheels – but there is no steering/directional control (Blame Isaac Newton, not me!).
3) Braking efficiency is not directly correspondent to retardation (you need to factor in tyre/road friction, aerodynamics, weight, energy dissipation and all sorts of other things) – as such, there is no such thing as a single optimum brake set-up for all situations.
4) Braking at high speed throws more weight onto the front axle than braking at slower speed.

It has long been my opinion that the brake callipers as fitted to the elan when it left the factory are still good enough for the job – as long as the whole brake system is maintained properly, and good tyres are fitted to the car.

That said, a little ‘tweaking’ of other components can be beneficial to the whole thing….

I have already swapped the master cylinder for a slightly smaller bore to give a longer pedal travel, with more ‘feel’ – this (theoretically) doesn’t produce more pressure in the brake system for any given movement of the pedal, but Mechanical Advantage of the lever should make the same pressure achievable with slightly less effort – ie, in an emergency brake situation…. And as such, more total pressure can be generated in the system with just this one ‘swap’ (see thread here).... a singular improvement for the whole system!

On a stationary car, it makes perfect sense to have 100% of the brake pressure acting on all 4 wheels at the same time – and fluid dynamics dictate that liquid (brake fluid) is non-compressible, so the pressure will be the same in the master cylinder as it is at the front callipers, as it is at the rear ones.

However, once the car starts to move (forwards), weight is thrown to the rear axle, and once you slow down, weight is transferred to the front – the harder you brake, the more weight is transferred to the front wheels – and the better the front brakes are, the more the weight will shift forwards..

Lotus (as well as other manufacturers) counter the physics with a variety of systems – starting with the obvious ones, fitting bigger brakes at the front than the rear, then fitting limiting/proportioning valves to the rear wheels.

During the production of the elan, 3 various combinations were fitted, all of which were intended to stop the rear wheels from locking up under heavy braking (and thus stopping you from spinning out of control if travelling in anything other than a perfectly straight line) – the system was gradually simplified until we got to the 2/15 proportioning valves fitted in line to each rear calliper.

Now, this system isn’t perfect, but it’s perfectly acceptable for 99.9% of the time – but if the valves go wrong, they are not cheap to replace (from Lotus), and there is no obvious simple swap available from any other manufacturer (with the same specifications) – unless YOU can find one, but a few of us have been looking for a while, both here and abroad…. The obvious limitation to US sourced ones is the brake pipe fitting – but that isn’t insurmountable, if the values work out right.

Also, the pressure to the calliper doesn’t equally relate to rate of retardation, and an ‘improvement’ to the brakes (bigger discs, different callipers, different pads), either front, rear or both, will have an effect on the desired split between front/rear pressures – as will temperature of the pads, and grip between tyre/road.

On a wet road, you should have more pressure to the front than on a dry road – but for the 99.9% situation we are considering, then the OE stuff is okay.

Remember, we are trying to get all 4 wheels nearly locking up, but not quite, under all circumstances – it can’t be done without very expensive kit like you’d get on a top-of-the-range supercar.

Anyway, all of the above has been well documented elsewhere on the forum – together with various theory on how to maintain the correct 70/30 split when upgrading the front brakes.

Most of the ‘solutions’ seem to involve increasing the size of the rear brakes to compensate – but I’m looking at it from a different point of view – and if my theory is proven to be correct, then no-one will ever have to purchase a rear brake (calliper/disc) ‘upgrade’ again.

Now, as many of you are aware, I have been doing a bit of work on the suspension & brakes for the last 9 months or so, and last week I took the car in for its first MOT test in over 2 years – bearing in mind that everything at the front was ‘new’, I just stuck a set of new pads in the rear callipers, new discs, and freed off the top slider in each calliper that had seized (not unexpected, and part of my usual routine anyway).

The car failed the MOT on ‘service brake efficiency’ – it registered 48%, not the minimum 50% required – I put it down to a combination of factors (air still in the system from the master cylinder swap/new pads not bedded in at the rear/front pads not warmed up) – until I saw the brake test figures which showed the RNS brake at 53 kgf, ROS at 49kgf (low by many standards – but fairly equal!). The front was 233 & 252 (a tad lower than I would like, but as the car had only been 2 miles in a year, not disastrous – a bit of a clean and it’ll improve)…..

….what surprised me (and prompted this whole exercise) was the handbrake figures – 143/135 respectively – and with the weight registered on the rollers, it came in at 21%!!!!!

The MOT pass standard is 16%, and I’ve only ever managed to get 18% at best, and usually 17% in the past – so much for my theory that it may be the new pads in the rear – they obviously work well enough to get 3 times the grip on the handbrake than the footbrake, with all other variables removed, before hitting the brake roller ‘slip point’.

Looking back at old MOT sheets, my rear brakes aren’t that far off what they’ve ever been, but the front were a bit lower, so the overall efficiency failed to meet the 50% requirement….

To pass the test, I had 3 options –

1) Reduce the weight of the vehicle by 192Kgs (emptying the boot and getting the lighter mechanic to operate the brakes would give me about 60Kgs!).
2) Clean/bleed the brakes to where they ought to be.
3) Increase the hydraulic braking at the rear wheels to nearer the figures that the handbrake say can be achieved with the current discs/pads.

Then the tester said something which made me think – “The back brakes are shite, get rid of the prop valve and it’d pass easily” – Now, I have known Ian for over 30 years, and we have either been rivals or collaborators in numerous Competition Car building/racing events over that time, and I knew that whilst he wasn’t serious about getting rid of the only thing that keeps the car pointing the right way under heavy braking, he did have a point……

….if you remove the proportioning valves, and replace them with a bit of copper pipe, there will be 100% pressure to the rear callipers and they’d then give a roller reading at/above the handbrake figures – giving an easy pass!

Additionally, the brakes would be a tad ‘sharper’ as there would be no restriction in the pipe diameter where it passes through the valves – fluid dynamics dictate that although the pressure in the system will always be constant, the flow rate (speed) of the fluid moving will vary with the diameter of the pipe.

This is all great on a static car with no weight shift (ie, for the MOT test) – but would be downright dangerous out on the road (or track!).

However, by changing the proportioning valve to another one, with suitable characteristics, we could have the best of everything – which brought me back to where I started – with nowt available off the shelf....... or so I thought.

As we were discussing it (and agreed that the only way to do it properly is to get the brakes working efficiently by bleeding, bleeding and bleeding again!), the idea of an adjustable ‘bias valve’ was brought up.

These are a simple system which is fitted to completion cars with a single master cylinder – they just reduce the pressure to the rear brakes (usually a single line which then separates to the 2 rear callipers/drums) to keep it all in a straight line – however, they are adjustable via a knob or lever to give the driver control over the bias as the race goes on and brakes get hot, tyres wear, and weather changes – as such, they are plumbed into the system inside the car in reach of the driver.

If I could fit one in each side (to replace the proportioning valves), it could work…..

A bit of Googling showed that many are available – with a variety of ‘values’ to choose from – the ones I went for were from my old friends at McGill Motorsports, as it was the closest to the OE values, and uses an M10 thread. (these ones)

It has a 0.3 pressure reduction from an adjustable ‘knee point’ of anything between 180psi and full pressure (so, the lowest point at which it can be set corresponds to 180psi, or ~12.4bar, and then works at 0.3 x inlet pressure at anything above that point).

There is a Wilwood version which adjusts down to 100psi (~7bar), but as an American company, they are usually an imperial thread, which wouldn’t be such an easy swap in the UK – they do list a version with M10 threads, but I couldn’t find them easily available over here.
I plotted the range on a graph, and compared it to the OE values of all 3 systems used by Lotus:-

brake chart.png


1 – 1st system used by Lotus, with 0.3:1 proportioning valve & 65bar limiter.
2 – 2nd system used by Lotus, with 0.3:1 proportioning valve & 70bar proportioning (0.1:1) valve.
3 – 3rd system used by Lotus, with 0.2:1 proportioning valve.
4 – 1st system used by me, 0.3:1 proportioning valve at lowest setting of 180psi.
5 – theoretical system for someone with upgraded front brakes - 0.3:1 proportioning valve at higher setting of 265psi.


The black box is the area where maximum pressure is exerted during harsh (emergency) braking (~1000-1200psi, or 68-80bar) – as you can see, all of the systems are in the same ball park at this point.

There are a number of advantages to the setup, and also a couple of possible ‘issues’ which I have hopefully overcome…..

First thing to consider is that this ONLY adjusts the pressure in the pipes, and has NO bearing on the friction between pads and discs.

However, if you have upgraded the front brakes, and want to restore maximum braking effect to the rear wheels, this will allow you to do just that – and then adjust it again for track use if it is raining (but unless you’re doing serious track stuff, it probably will never be touched).

It will allow you to easily pass the MOT test – just wind up the pressure for the test, and put it back down again afterwards (I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS JUST TO GET A ‘PASS’ - - FIX YOUR BLOODY BRAKES PROPERLY!).

It can allow ‘fine tuning’ OS/NS brakes to give the same braking effort – again, it is no substitute for having them working properly to start with, and shouldn’t be a way to overcome a ‘sticky’ calliper/slider.

Possible ‘negatives’ are that the units will ‘self-adjust’ with vibration during normal use, maybe unnoticed until you need to do an emergency stop. This is unlikely, due to the friction on the threaded knob, but once I’m totally happy with the setting, I’ll probably use some locking wire to stop it moving.

The only way to see how it all works with my setup (only ‘upgrade’ being better front pads) is to try it out….

… so this week, it’s off to the local airfield with a stopwatch and measuring tape - nowt to hit when it slides!!

Once I have it working at the setting I want for maximum braking, it’s off to the MOT station to see what values I get at the rear wheels! – then future adjustments can be done on the rollers using those values as a ‘start point’.

All-in cost, under £70 for the 2 valves, and 2 short brake pipes to fit them (didn’t actually cost me anything, I had a roll in stock).

P1010003.JPG
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Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby norman lovie » Sun 17.08.2014, 14:43

good stuff especially that your going to be testing it out to achieve feed back to confirm the mod. 8)

last week I serviced my prop valves - and found that one of them was plugged in the tiny orifice of the piston and both had a build up of crud around the shut off valves - neither is going to be helping the rear brakes -- when you consider why these things are fitted + lack of service and testing to check they are doing what they are supposed to do = the minor potential risk you raised ref: using bias valves is put into perspective
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby chrisP » Wed 27.08.2014, 13:27

Just a note from me, I have had problems with the valves in the past, even though they are non serviceable, I decided to take them apart and see if there was anything wrong, I was surprised with the amount of accumulated rubbish inside. Once this was cleaned out they went back together without any trouble and have seemed to perform as intended since.

Regards
Chris
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby dapinky » Wed 27.08.2014, 13:38

I have opened up my old valves and given them a good clean - but the idea behind this project was to improve the braking split front/rear to account for ANY front brake upgrade - from a better brake pad, all the way up to AP / Brembo or similar.

I have been testing various settings and can go from locking the rear brakes with ease (on heavy braking), down to slightly less braking effort than OE valves.

Just to stress the fact, this has NOT been done on public roads - that would be pretty silly!!!!

I have been using the brake rollers at the MOT station, and the dissused runway at Weston airfield.

I have settled an a setting (2 1/4 turns of the adjustment knob from 'minimum') - this gives the shortest 'real world' stopping distance without locking the brakes (and adds a bit of tollerence to allow for wet road surfaces).

Putting the car on the rollers gives figures of 288Kgf at the front, and 94 at the rear.

A total braking efficiency of 61% (with the weight of the car as it was on the day) - and I'm happy with that!
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby norman lovie » Fri 29.08.2014, 07:25

thanks for the feed back - another potential project addition
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby Steve A » Thu 04.06.2015, 16:32

:( My car failed on weak OS rear brake this morning, I'm trying to decide between cleaning out my valve or the upgrade :?

BTW very good write up Dave :bowdown:
"If everything is under control, you are going too slow."
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby rdodger » Fri 05.06.2015, 08:45

Funny this should pop up. Just yesterday I was discussing this with my mechanic friend.

Having changed the rear discs, front & rear pads, braided hoses and new fluid at the weekend and having done 50 or so miles since I was surprised to see the rear discs only having wear marks over about 10mm in the middle of the disc. I have the PNM rear calipers and standard fronts.

Under moderate to heavy braking the car does dive quite a lot more than I expected, before and after the disc/pad change. We speculated that this is due to it being under braked at the rear?

Having read a couple of period road test I haven't seen anything to say that the standard brakes were suspect. So is the under par braking down to worn old parts or are modern brakes so much better now than 20 years ago? Has anyone got a standard brake set up they are happy with?

Having seen new proportioning valves are a lot of money when available and even if I change them I don't know if rear braking will improve, I was thinking adjustable bias valve but fitting it by blanking one rear circuit in the MC with a bleed nipple then having the valve under the bonnet. From there a single line to the rear of the car then T'd off to the rear calipers.

I have something similar on my kit car and it works well. In my kit car it is only used for fine tuning between wet and dry tracks etc as the brake balance is very good by design.

Another consideration would be which valve to use as from what I understand none of them reduce pressure to zero. Wilwood claim to have the best reduction at around 57%. Would this be enough?

Lots of questions and no answers as yet. I think my plan will be to review after this weekend where I will be covering about 300 miles and see how well they have bedded in and see how I feel about the performance then. From there a brake test at the MOT centre to see what the numbers say.

Anyone offer any advice or experience? Braking effort numbers would be useful for comparison.

Cheers
Rog
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby dapinky » Fri 05.06.2015, 11:12

Rog,

Like you, I considered a single line system for the rear (as that would give the easiest way to keep it all in balance by reducing a valve from the system) - but as it is a diagonally split system decided that it may not work as efficiently by simply blocking one port (in event of a failure)..... That said, it would reduce the number of potential failure points anyway, and as long as you blank off the hole which currently operates from the secondary chamber of the MC, leaving the primary going to the rear, it could be a good option..... it would all depend on where the 'failure' occurrs as to whether you are left with one front brake or one front and both rear.

I also considered merging the 2 pipes to the rear, fitting one valve, and then splitting it again, but again it got more complex - hence i went with the 2 valves.

I would have preferred a single valve positioned in a different place, but as (once set up) it won't need much tweeking unless I do a trackday in variable weather conditions, decided to do it the way I have.

12 months on and I'm still happy with the way it all works - as you say, there are plenty of options of valves, but the Wilwood one seemed to be the most suitable for the Elan.

I was initially concerned that the valve may adjust itself under use (vibration etc), so used a bit of lock wire to hold it in place and all seems good (it probably wouldn't need it, but as it was easy to do it added a safety feature (even if only in my mind, not the real world!).
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby lotusflasherman » Fri 05.06.2015, 18:28

rdodger wrote:1) Under moderate to heavy braking the car does dive quite a lot more than I expected, before and after the disc/pad change. We speculated that this is due to it being under braked at the rear?
2) Having read a couple of period road test I haven't seen anything to say that the standard brakes were suspect.
3)So is the under par braking down to worn old parts or are modern brakes so much better now than 20 years ago?
4)Has anyone got a standard brake set up they are happy with?

Cheers
Rog

Added numbers to your questions so can give my view of each topic-

1) Early SE's had 5 degree of anti-lift built into the rear suspension, which was later reduced to 2.5 degrees, but it only works if the rear brakes actually do something. If they do it should help reduce the lifting of the rear end. I don't think the front suspension has anti-dive geometry (for braking) as, if my memory serves me correctly, it will provide front lift under acceleration and hence promote wheelspin...(I think).

Most front wheel drive cars are 'under braked' at the rear by design because
a) the weight of the engine & transmission is over the front wheels & the rear is comparatively lightly loaded and very heavy braking tends to 'stand the car on it's front wheels'. (Motorcyclists should apply the rear brake marginally before the front so the trailing arm sits the rear down before the front brake starts working but they have the advantage of separate systems.)
b) it is pretty difficult to lock the front wheels because to do so will stall the engine, unless the driver is stupid enough to dip the clutch, but very easy to lock the rear.
c) when the rear wheels get very lightly loaded or lock the rear end becomes 'very skittish'. This can be challenging to the driver on the road or useful on the racetrack. Lotus eliminate this challenge with the proportioning valves to restrict the rear brakes. I raced a mini with sticky Dunlop 7" slick tyres that lifted both rear wheels several inches off the track under braking for the Mallory Park hairpin. Photo of braking for Druids at Brands and OSR wheel is few inches off the track. I went to twin leading shoes at the rear (no handbrake) with most of the standard friction material cut off and was still flat-spotting the rear tyres - and you could buy a secondhand 850cc mini for the price of one of those tyres!!! The better the brakes are at the front, the less the rears will be doing, particularly if they are in the air.
druids.JPG


2) I don't believe standard brakes are suspect - I put 120,00 miles on my first SE and the brakes were superb throughout, but it was used everyday for business and the rear discs were always 'bright metal'. Next time you attend a gathering of Elans just look at the state of the average rear disc. Not a pretty sight!

3) Problem seems to be that many Elans are not used enough to keep the rear brakes in working order. I have bought a couple of OE rear pairs via ebay from owners who have upgraded (Hi Apollo) and the discs I got are like this one currently on ebay...
Image
Not a lot of the disc doing anything towards stopping the car. As rust particles act more like a lubricant than a friction material it's no wonder the owner thought the brakes were useless and the handbrake struggled for the MOT. I spun them on a lathe to take a fine cut to get back to bright metal across the whole disc.

I too had an underused Elan. Fitted EBC slotted and dimpled front discs with Greenspot pads but nothing conveniently available for rear so tried machining slots in a set of OE rear discs - it helps the pads get the rust/dust away and gives the handbrake something to 'bite'. It worked and got the car through the MOT several times without a problem, other than making sure the Greenspot pads were warm, but the noise of the rear pad passing over the slots can be heard with the hood down and is VERY annoying. (That Elan is currently on SORN).

4) Yes - but they do need looking after. When I bought current SE in Oct 2013 was told it had been on SORN for several years so took it to Kelvedon Motors near Spalding for big service, replace all fluids, cambelt etc and instructed strip down, clean, free off etc brakes & calipers. When I got home I removed discs and took a fine cut to clean them up. I have since used it regularly. I play football every Tuesday to keep me fit and take Elan to keep that fit. I didn't use it for 4+ weeks when fiddling around installing radio/mp3 player, new speakers, nokia car kit and changing to silver instrument faces and in that time all discs had got significant surface rust as it was outside on the drive. Whenever I have surface rust I jack up, remove wheel and clean discs with an abrasive flap wheel in a Ryobi angle-grinder and wipe clean with meths on a paper towel. Doesn't take long and keeps pads from getting mucked up with rust dust. I do tend to drive out of the village with my left foot on the brake to give the brakes a warm up, clean off etc.. something I had to do with EBC pads to warm them up - dreadful when cold!

I'm not sure that an upgrade will give any long term benefit. Might be great when new, but probably new OE system would be a great improvement on a rusty rear disc setup. If 'upgrade' isn't used regularly or looked after it will end up just as bad as an OE setup.

Valves - I like Dave's thinking about controlling the proportioning valves :bowdown: and was toying with the idea of routing pipes into the cabin and using lever valves with preset values..Image
That way I could turn them down so the rear brakes work virtually unrestricted, for cleaning them up, warming them up and useful for MOT time and then put them back as required.
Might be interesting to see how much Elan needs the the rear restricting - I suspect 'not a lot in the dry' but 'very much so in the wet'...
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby lotusflasherman » Fri 05.06.2015, 18:40

Steve A wrote::( My car failed on weak OS rear brake this morning, I'm trying to decide between cleaning out my valve or the upgrade :?

BTW very good write up Dave :bowdown:


Think I'd try cleaning up the disc and pad and checking caliper is moving freely first. Quicker, easier, cheaper.

The valve only starts to work to shut off excess pressure when it has enough pressure to work the rear brakes. The failure mode is usually either they start to leak (I've had teardrop of fluid coming out the central joint) or they don't restrict enough (one rear wheel starts locking). I can't readily think how they will make a rear brake 'weak' but others may enlighten me...
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby rdodger » Fri 05.06.2015, 19:12

Thanks for the replies gents. Makes for interesting reading.

I will report back after this weekends jolly.
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby Steve A » Mon 08.06.2015, 22:57

Based on the fact that Dave's done all the research on this mod and it is a tried & tested upgrade
I've decided to give Dave's mod a go and ordered the adjustable valves, once again cheers Dave :bowdown:
"If everything is under control, you are going too slow."
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby Enright » Tue 09.06.2015, 10:55

Don't forget to post your results Steve, either positive OR including any difficulties you had.
I'm sure that a lot of people (myself included) would be very interested in seeing how you get on.
Striking fear into the hearts of duplicate posts everywhere...! :P

BCingU,
Neil ;-)
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby lotusflasherman » Tue 09.06.2015, 12:55

Steve A wrote:Based on the fact that Dave's done all the research on this mod and it is a tried & tested upgrade
I've decided to give Dave's mod a go and ordered the adjustable valves, once again cheers Dave :bowdown:


OK, but I don't think Dave did his mod to deal with a difference between a weak OS that failed the MOT and a working NS that passed. He does say "It will allow you to easily pass the MOT test – just wind up the pressure for the test, and put it back down again afterwards (I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS JUST TO GET A ‘PASS’ - - FIX YOUR BLOODY BRAKES PROPERLY!)."

I still think it's important that you get both rear brakes working in a similar fashion and then whatever bias from front to rear you choose it will be the same OS to NS. I would not advise having different ramp curves to deal with your difference between OS & NS, otherwise you'll have a car that wants to play hopscotch under heavy braking. Where in 'South East Essex' are you? I'm in South Suffolk/close to North Essex (Colchester) so if you need a hand give me a shout.

Bit here about brake proportioning valves with some good advice ... stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/proportioning-valves

My Subaru Forester has proportioning valve linked to lower rear suspension arm so when the rear lifts it increases the bias to the front brakes - now that's the way to go Mr P. :lol:
Phil

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Cars: Subaru Forester 2.5XTN, Eclat Riviera, brace of Pacific Blue SE's, Collapso SE, Elan+2S.... and now an Evora
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lotusflasherman
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby dapinky » Tue 09.06.2015, 13:12

lotusflasherman wrote:My Subaru Forester has proportioning valve linked to lower rear suspension arm so when the rear lifts it increases the bias to the front brakes - now that's the way to go Mr P. :lol:


Yes, but Subaru nicked the idea from the British!

It is a standard fitment on the Dolomite Sprint - but it is also one of the first things I removed from every one of the (16) Sprints I have owned - no-one ever seemed to get them to work properly once they were about 2 days old!!! A standard flexible hose replaces the complicated (and heavy) unit above the rear axle and then by fitting different front/rear brake systems you can set it up however you want it (depending if it's for road, race or rally).

(and I'm pretty sure that Triumph didn't invent the concept, but they seemed to be the first company to totally destroy the idea that they were a great addition to the car!!!!)
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby Enright » Tue 09.06.2015, 13:24

dapinky wrote:(and I'm pretty sure that Triumph didn't invent the concept, but they seemed to be the first company to totally destroy the idea that they were a great addition to the car!!!!)

In that case I'm almost surprised that 16V engines in production cars are commonplace, given their history of bu66ering up those too!!! :lol:
To be fair I still love Dolly Sprints and still regret missing out on one as my first car back in the late 80's.
Mind you it would probably have fallen apart, or killed me, or both...
Striking fear into the hearts of duplicate posts everywhere...! :P

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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby dapinky » Tue 09.06.2015, 13:40

Enright wrote:In that case I'm almost surprised that 16V engines in production cars are commonplace, given their history of bu66ering up those too!!! :lol:


Ah, but they didn't really popularise the 16v engine - it had been around for years..... all they did was remove one of the camshafts and use a complicated rocker system to opperate the other bank of valves. A great idea in theory, but it has (had?) it's limitations on what cam profiles can be used. (Oh, and the cooling system was the big problem - easilly solved by removing half of the vanes in the waterpump).

However, it does hold the accolade of being the first production car to be fitted with alloy wheels as standard........ and now you'd be hard find to buy a car without them.
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby lotusflasherman » Tue 09.06.2015, 17:19

dapinky wrote:
lotusflasherman wrote:My Subaru Forester has proportioning valve linked to lower rear suspension arm so when the rear lifts it increases the bias to the front brakes - now that's the way to go Mr P. :lol:


Yes, but Subaru nicked the idea from the British!

It is a standard fitment on the Dolomite Sprint - but it is also one of the first things I removed from every one of the (16) Sprints I have owned - no-one ever seemed to get them to work properly once they were about 2 days old!!! A standard flexible hose replaces the complicated (and heavy) unit above the rear axle and then by fitting different front/rear brake systems you can set it up however you want it (depending if it's for road, race or rally).

(and I'm pretty sure that Triumph didn't invent the concept, but they seemed to be the first company to totally destroy the idea that they were a great addition to the car!!!!)


:agree: Japs nick most ideas but they do have a very nasty habit of getting them to work - reliably too! One of the best attributes of the M100 is the relative reliability of that big lumpy thing under the bonnet which was sourced from the Japanese wing of GM, damn it!

16 Sprints, goodness! ... I'm on my 3rd SE and 3rd Forester and thought I'd got stuck in a rut, but if they work for you, why not? Didn't think the Subaru proportioning valve was any bigger than Elan's so just got under the back of this Forester and the found I'm wrong - it's gone! The hydraulic valve has been replaced by an electronic sensor and the manual says I have EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) on this one - monitors suspension positions and wheel rotations and plays appropriate tunes on the ABS and rear damper valves to bias front/rear and side to side braking effort. UGH .. think it might be expensive if it goes wrong.
Phil

Leave me alone, I think I know what I'm doing.
Cars: Subaru Forester 2.5XTN, Eclat Riviera, brace of Pacific Blue SE's, Collapso SE, Elan+2S.... and now an Evora
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby dapinky » Tue 09.06.2015, 19:01

Phil,

I am down to only 3 Sprints now (and that will be further reduced to 2 sometime this Summer).... As with most things, it started innocently enough with a second-hand car back in the '80s, which got sold a few months later - then the missus wanted to learn to drive but didn't like gears, so i 'borrowed' a Sprint auto, which never got returned, then a number of years later, my old one came up for sale from a friend of mine (who now resides on LEC, having eventually getting round to buying the Lotus he promissed himself for his 30th birthday (later revised to 40th, then 50th!!!), so i got it back again. It needed a new engine, so i bought another one....then got friendly with a bloke whose business was in repairing Dollys, and we did some rallying together in one of his ex-works Sprints (he had 2 of the 4 which BL used in the '70s - and I convinced him that one would be better off in my garage)... then i just ended up buying various cars and modifying them to various stages for circuit/rally or road use... many were sold, some scrapped (Leyland cars of the era have a habit of rusting, don't you know :lol: ), and now I'm down to a rally car, a road car and a circuit racer which is rusted beyond sensible repair (there's only so many times it's worth replacing the main bulkhead before the shell looses structural integrity). But as I'll have some nice bits left over, I might have to look for another one - after all, a Group 1 engine with 240bhp, close ratio box and LSD won't be any good sitting in the garage - but I think that they'll end up in the road car and the safety equipment will go to a new home - i no longer do any competitive racing, likewise rallying - it all gets a bit dear these days :( .

I fully agree that those cunning Orientals seem to have a knack of taking brilliant (initial) British ideas and getting them to work well in the mass market - if only we could/would spend the development money, then there would be a much better UK car industry.
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: proportioning valve (solution) - cheap rear brake 'upgra

Postby Steve A » Tue 09.06.2015, 19:26

OK, but I don't think Dave did his mod to deal with a difference between a weak OS that failed the MOT and a working NS that passed. He does say "It will allow you to easily pass the MOT test – just wind up the pressure for the test, and put it back down again afterwards (I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS JUST TO GET A ‘PASS’ - - FIX YOUR BLOODY BRAKES PROPERLY!)."

I still think it's important that you get both rear brakes working in a similar fashion and then whatever bias from front to rear you choose it will be the same OS to NS. I would not advise having different ramp curves to deal with your difference between OS & NS, otherwise you'll have a car that wants to play hopscotch under heavy braking. Where in 'South East Essex' are you? I'm in South Suffolk/close to North Essex (Colchester) so if you need a hand give me a shout.


Yes adding the adjustable valves just to pass the MOT would be foolhardy :bonk:

I need a new valve, the adjustable valves are available, cheaper, and will do a better job when set up correctly, so for me it's a no brainer :wink:

I've now removed the old valves and need to make a platform for the valves to sit on, then I need to find somebody that can knock me up some new brake pipes 8)
"If everything is under control, you are going too slow."
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