Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Moderators: theelanman, dapinky, Specky, clemo, Nige, Sy V, Dave Eds, DaveT, Elanlover, muley, Enright, algirdas, nitroman, GeoffSmith

Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Tue 23.02.2016, 16:20

Dear fellow LEC tinkerers!


After struggling with my turbo rebuild, and learning a LOT in the progress of it, I'd thought I share my experience here on LEC so others might benefit as well.
The usual disclaimer here: This is MY experience and the way I did it, but not necessarily the correct way of doing it (far from)

I will post the pictures first and update the topic start with my comments in the coming days so check back regularly. After filtering, I have 70 pictures left for here on LEC so please bear with me as it takes a lot of time to post & comment.

I hope you like the work so far!


Reason for rebuild:

I got this smell of burnt oil after and during each drive. When I came to a full stop, the smell in the cabin was killing. At first I Suspected an exhaust line leak somewhere, so I did everything to check and repair that (but that's another story) After the exhaust line was completely gas tight, I still got the smell!

Then the turbo was suspicious. There was no excessive free play in the bearings, either radial or axial. It was however the only location left where burnt oil smell could escape. Also I the car was suffering from lack of performance. Performance slowly degraded over time and could not achieve Elysium boost set-point any more. Not even stock perssure! Now who wants a slow Elan? (well I certainty do not! :asleep: )

So I put the car up in the air and took a flashlight and a mirror, and finally, finally! found a tiny leak at the turbine side of the turbo. Bingo! :bananasex:
Now I knew I had to refurbish the turbo! So in short the problems I experienced were:

* Degrading power output
* Degrading maximum boost
* Increasing spool-up times
* Burnt oil smell when at full stop
* Sooty Exhaust tip

* No noticeable excessive free play in one or more bearings

Starting point:
I ordered my refurb kit on eBay, based on these IHI specs:

IHI VI77 9103 (Turbo Spec)
RHB5 29464A (Serial)
8943373502 (Part No)
8944731580 (OEM Part)
VE130073 (Re-Core)
VD130087 (Re-core alternative)
(something like this: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/IHI-RHB5-Repair- ... dZRGSmyeUA)

Then off course the first stop was the LEC WIKI, with the great write-up from Dave Pink ( :bowdown: Thanks a million man!)I'll try not to repeat here everything Dave stated...
http://wikilec.9600.org/index.php/Turbo ... _IHI_Turbo

My plan was to take it off the car, disassemble, clean the separate parts (in a big ultrasonic cleaner), inspect for damage and replace where necessary, rebuild, reinstall, drive! and follow Dave's write up as much as possible.

The obvious:
* Mark the orientation of all components of the turbo, especially the compressor relative to the shaft! All main components are pre balanced, but the small parts like washers and nuts are not. You'll need a re-balance if you mess up!
* work clean! These are all precision parts. Dirt will ruin the end result or your entire turbo Better clean too much than too less.
* when you are ready for a test drive, fill the entire assembly with oil before you refit the top banjo bolt. give it time to soak in.
* Crank the engine for a minute without ignition so the oil pump has time to prime the entire turbo circuitry
* I would not use this stuff again to cover my downpipe :? Nasty fibres!


Here's a visual of what happened to me:

1 Image
Here you can see the heat shield on the turbine side. As you can see there is black crud all over it, but especially at the lower left quadrant. This is where the leak was. The oil leaked past the shaft into the turbo housing.

2 Image
This is what the compressor housing looked when it came off


3 Image
At the inside of the compressor housing there is a lot of oily residue. This is however still sticky oil, it easily wipes off and comes (possibly) from the PCV oil seperator


4 Image
Here you can see it a little better


5 Image
This is how the shaft + turbine came out. Remember: It is shrinked in position, so it is a one piece assembly now. Don't try to take it apart!


6 Image
Here you can clearly see the crude evidence of carbon residue built up around the turbine oil seal or piston ring


7 Image
The Inconell turbine wheel itself looked perfect by the way


8 Image
The shaft is a bit brown, but not blue. Blue means: too hot, so scrap!


9 Image
This is how the compressor came off. Only very minor damage after 130.000 KM of abuse


10 Image
You can see clearly where the compressor is balanced.


11 Image
Here you can see the Turbo housing underneath the heat shield. Lot's of carbon residue built up. This is not good!


12 Image
Here you can see it a little better


13 Image
After a quick whipe the compressor side looked quite clean. Not new, but clean enough


14 Image
More detail:


15 Image
Let's get the housing for the seals out of the way...


16 Image
I used allen keys, like dave, to wiggle it out


17 Image
Almost there


18 Image
Here you go! Note the red RTV used to seal off this part


19 Image
Now we have a clear view on the thrust bearing or thrust plate underneath


20 Image
Once undone you can pry out the thrust washer / oil seal assembly with your fingers



21 Image
You can clearly see the piston ring-type seal here


22 Image
This is the kit I ordered from eBay


23 Image
Take great care not to twist or even break the piston seals whilst installing them in the assembly. Make sure you lubricate them for easy fitment. You can assemble the part with your fingers only! When you need tools or a press, you are doing it wrong and you will damage either the seal itself or the soft aluminium mating surface (on the compressor side)


24 Image
more...


25 Image
Here is the thrust bearing and you can see the small oil channels that provide the oil film between the flanges during operation


26 Image
Removal of the thrust plate


27 Image
Thrust bearing exposed


28 Image
Now you can remove the shaft bearing (compressor side)
This bearing also works with an oil film, hence the pre determined gap or free play of the new bearings.


29 Image
more...


30 Image
Yep, It is only a little worn


31 Image
Oil supply and drain. Remember, the oil drain is gravity feed, so make sure the drain pipe is not bend or twisted!


32 Image
Inner circlips that hold the shaft bearings in place


33 Image
I had to grind a little of my pliers till they would fit the tiny holes!


34 Image
The shaft bearing on the turbine side slides out. Note all the black crud!


35 Image
The turbine housing after it comes out of the ultrasonic cleaner


36 Image
I gave it a little polish, because I can :-)


37 Image
Mr. Smiley comes out clean as well


38 Image
A quick polish with Scotchbrite to remove surface roughness


39 Image
Ready for reassembly!


40 Image
I cleaned the black crud off. NOTE: the worn shiny edge or lip at the turbine side of the piston ring groove!


41 Image
New shaft bearing here as well


42 Image
Clean everything thorough with brake cleaner


43 Image
Compressor seal pressed in position


44 Image
Here's the other side


45 Image
Another good clean


46 Image
Good for assembly


47 Image
Don't forget the RTV sealant, and make ABSOLUTELY sure there is no sealant in the bearing or the oil channes underneath! I RTV-ed only the outer edge of the assembly to make absolutely sure that the mating surface stays even and clean. We just need to make a seal on the edge here.


48 Image
This looks worse than it is, and yes, the groove in the right upper quadrant is filled with RTV :-)


49 Image
Cleaned the excess of RTV off and position it correctly for the screws


50 Image
I used liquid locking for these


51 Image
Voila!


52 Image
A smear of grease so the piston ring snaps in position when we place the shaft


52aImage
Now that the RTV seal cured, I lubed everything up with (lots! of) thin oil


53 Image
Since the bearings need some free play, the oil is sucked into all the thin grooves and channels. Everything is well lubricated


54 Image
Test fit of the shaft


55 Image
Put the heat shield back (yes, it is clean!)


56 Image
Test Fit Compressor wheel


57 Image
Perfect fit!


58 Image
Perfect fit as well!


59 Image
More...


60 Image
It's back on the exhaust manifold


61 Image
Another surface to seal with RTV. We don't want that precious boost escaping in the wrong direction!


62 Image
Wastegate back after a functional check


63 Image
Oil drain pipe back with new seal


64 Image
My modified Piper downpipe, still naked


65 Image
Time to dress up


66 Image
Ready for prom night


67 Image
Let's get those manifold studs back in. NOTE: The turbo is loose in it's housing so I could fine-tune the rotational position! This was however totally unnecessary, but now I know I can get the turbo cartridge out in no time if I need to (and boy, do I need to...)


68 Image
I love my Lotus protection cover


69 Image
O2 sensor hook up and ready for a test drive!


70 Image
One final close up before the first drive
Last edited by HJ2 on Tue 23.02.2016, 20:14, edited 5 times in total.
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby dapinky » Tue 23.02.2016, 17:26

Nice pictures - good to see every step involved (I tend to miss quite a few bits when I'm busy doing these things!).
Dave

Just the one now, but this one's mine! - and it will be finished eventually..... - but also temporary custodian of a project until it is finished enough for Angie to drive it


...oh, and a 2006 Freelander destined for the jungles of The Gambia - 4500 miles across roads, desert and tracks - what could possibly go wrong?
User avatar
dapinky
LEC Administrator
 
Posts: 10605
Joined: Sun 15.10.2006, 12:54
Location: As far west as you can get in West Wales before you become Irish (Pembroke Dock).

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Giniw » Tue 23.02.2016, 17:33

Yes, thanks a lot for the effort. It's not easy taking all the photos while working :) (and their quality is really good, too!)
User avatar
Giniw
God
 
Posts: 1615
Joined: Sat 21.04.2012, 20:46
Location: France

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Tue 23.02.2016, 21:09

You are welcome! :D
Sometimes it is good to give a little back to LEC.

Now here are the results of the Dutch Jury:

1. The oil smell is (finally) gone! :clap:
2. The boost is back! Spot on, and almost instantly. Wheel spin in 4th on a damp road :bananasex: The boost rises fast and stays rock solid at the determined setpoint.
3. Everything is leak free (as far as the eye can detect it)
4. Happy! :smt035

So far the good side. Now unfortunately for the bad:

ONLY on deceleration after max. boost, there is a HUGE plume of blue smoke in my rear view mirror, and it's mine! :oops:
Please think with me what could cause this!

I have 3 possible causes.
1. There is a lot of oil residue in the intercooler, left there from the failing turbo seal. Now on max boost it find it's way out again through the motor. However this unlikely, as the seal that failed is on the exhaust side, not the compressor or intake side. I'll skip this for now
2. Some sort of failure from the PCV system. Yess, there is a little oil in the air intake hose after the connection of this pipe. I can clean the system & the sintered filters, but how can I check if the system works like it should?
3. The most likely but unwanted cause: Another oil seal failure on the turbine side of the turbo! On deceleration the turbo stops spinning and the pressure is gone. the same pressure helps in sealing as the positive pressure forces the oil into the oil drain of the turbo. This is by design. If the seal is bad, the oil leaks into the exhaust and gets burned there, causing blue smoke.

Now when I disassembled the turbo I saw 2 things i could not explain. The piston seal of the turbine had a step-like groove on the housing end. When everything is well, the ring is held by the housing and is thus stationairy. the oil seal groove in the shaft rotates around it. However the wear marks tell me that perhaps the ring rotated as well, possibly due to the coke-up with carbon residue.This made a groove in the shaft (the shiny edge in picture 40!)
I also noticed that the turbo housing has a step-like groove where the piston seal as per above sits! I had a little trouble getting the shaft in the housing far enough for the assembly to rotate freely. A slight tap with a plastic hammer snapped it into position where the pre-determined play was well within spec.

It is now my suspicion that the worn groove in the shaft and more the groove in the housing is causing a new leak now at the turbine side.
(I'll post some detail shots of the turbine piston ring tomorrow)


What do you think?
Last edited by HJ2 on Sun 28.02.2016, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Peter D » Tue 23.02.2016, 22:31

Very nice and useful thread, though I'll probably end up in Delft anyway when something needs to get done on mine ;-)

I have no idea what might cause the smoke.
Oil residu in the intercooler seems to be far fetched (imho).
As you can see the smoke in your rear view mirror, it's quiet some oil burning going on and not just some oil contaminated air.
I fear for the grooves in the shaft and housing... :evil:
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… that’s what gets you.
User avatar
Peter D
Enthusiast
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue 30.03.2010, 23:30
Location: Landen - Belgium

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby lotusflasherman » Wed 24.02.2016, 03:54

Thanks for a great 'presentation'. Must have taken you twice as long to do the job with all those photos at every stage ....
I've got a spare turbo to do a waste gate porting job and rebuild on before I swap it for the original to repeat the exercise on. I'll be able to do that with a lot more confidence now... :clap: :clap: :clap:
Phil

Leave me alone, I think I know what I'm doing.
Cars: Subaru Forester 2.5XTN, Eclat Riviera, brace of Pacific Blue SE's, Collapso SE, Elan+2S.... and now an Evora
User avatar
lotusflasherman
God
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Fri 05.09.2008, 00:14
Location: Hadleigh, 15m west of Ipswich or I may be 800 miles south (Cap d'Agde)

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Thu 25.02.2016, 10:29

I think it is safe to say now that I need a re-core for my turbo. Unfortunately the wear and damage done by the spinning oil piston ring at the turbine end is just too much.
I am unable to find a supplier for a re-core in the Netherlands. I do have a quote for 400 Euro for a refurb with oversize components (involves grinding the shaft)

Does anyone know of a supplier for a new or refurbished IHI re-core in the UK, elsewhere in Europe, or even the US?
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Artaban » Thu 25.02.2016, 12:59

Turbo Technics might be worth a call.http://www.turbotechnics.com
They rebuilt my turbo back in 2010. Basically there was very little they could salvage from it and new turbos were no longer available so they had quite a bit of work to do. No issues with it for the past 5 years. At the time they had done a lot of work on our turbos so they know them very well. At least you'll establish if the price you've been quoted is competitive or not.
Andy
My wife's just divorced me because I wouldn't open the car door for her!
To be fair I panicked and swam straight for the surface.
User avatar
Artaban
Fanatic
 
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue 09.02.2010, 07:24
Location: Tiverton, Devon UK

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby cliff » Thu 25.02.2016, 17:29

Henk,

CR Turbos offer an overhaul and upgrade service, they will fit an over sized compressor as well if you want it. There are a couple of threads about this, mine is going there on Monday.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=17429&hilit=turbo+upgrade

http://www.crturbos.co.uk/index.php
91 Lotus Elan SE Turbo
03 MG TF 135 Sprint (Partner's)
07 Alfa Spider 939

If you can't be a good example, then you might as well be a terrible warning
User avatar
cliff
God
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon 17.01.2011, 18:39
Location: Preveza Greece / Scunthorpe UK

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Fri 26.02.2016, 13:43

Thanks all!

However I am looking for a complete re-core that I can fit myself (for obvious reasons), not a re-furb. :D
Refurbishment is also available in the Netherlands.

So I am looking for a supplier for something like this:
But then for our turbo! (a complete core with all rotating parts, well balanced)
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/IHI-RHF5 ... 38502.html
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Sun 28.02.2016, 10:40

Now this looks kind of familiar!

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Turbolader-Rumpf ... 0941025903?

Any expert opinions on this particular cartridge?
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Fredjohn » Sun 28.02.2016, 11:52

HJ2 wrote:Now this looks kind of familiar!

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Turbolader-Rumpf ... 0941025903?

Any expert opinions on this particular cartridge?


Alles ist auf deutsch, ich kann wirklich nichts verstehen :| :| :| :shock: :shock:
La vie passe vite: vivez la avec élan.

Elan SE turbo 1992
Emira 2023
Mercedes Benz C200 estate
Lotus Evija Danish edition
User avatar
Fredjohn
God
 
Posts: 2537
Joined: Tue 21.08.2012, 00:30
Location: Malvern, Worcs

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Sun 28.02.2016, 12:47

Haha! But serial numbers are in Japanese-International! :-)

I just went for another spin, but the car loses more oil in the exhaust than lady incontinentia :roll:
Not good!
Last edited by HJ2 on Sun 28.02.2016, 14:34, edited 2 times in total.
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Steve A » Sun 28.02.2016, 13:31

:goodposting:

Another great post Henk
"If everything is under control, you are going too slow."
User avatar
Steve A
God
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: Tue 18.09.2007, 12:44
Location: South East Essex

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby cliff » Sun 28.02.2016, 19:37

Fredjohn wrote:
HJ2 wrote:Now this looks kind of familiar!

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Turbolader-Rumpf ... 0941025903?

Any expert opinions on this particular cartridge?


Alles ist auf deutsch, ich kann wirklich nichts verstehen :| :| :| :shock: :shock:


Wiel es ist in Niederlandische. :lol:

Probably because it is Dutch not German. :D
Last edited by cliff on Sun 28.02.2016, 19:45, edited 3 times in total.
91 Lotus Elan SE Turbo
03 MG TF 135 Sprint (Partner's)
07 Alfa Spider 939

If you can't be a good example, then you might as well be a terrible warning
User avatar
cliff
God
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon 17.01.2011, 18:39
Location: Preveza Greece / Scunthorpe UK

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby cliff » Sun 28.02.2016, 19:40

Give CR a call, they might be able to supply what you need.
91 Lotus Elan SE Turbo
03 MG TF 135 Sprint (Partner's)
07 Alfa Spider 939

If you can't be a good example, then you might as well be a terrible warning
User avatar
cliff
God
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon 17.01.2011, 18:39
Location: Preveza Greece / Scunthorpe UK

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Mon 29.02.2016, 11:00

cliff wrote:
Fredjohn wrote:
HJ2 wrote:Now this looks kind of familiar!

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/Turbolader-Rumpf ... 0941025903?

Any expert opinions on this particular cartridge?


Alles ist auf deutsch, ich kann wirklich nichts verstehen :| :| :| :shock: :shock:


Wiel es ist in Niederlandische. :lol:

Probably because it is Dutch not German. :D


There's NO humor here, so it IS German, no doubt!. :lol:
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby Fredjohn » Mon 29.02.2016, 11:26

POST DELETED AS IRRELEVANT

:D :D
Last edited by Fredjohn on Mon 29.02.2016, 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
La vie passe vite: vivez la avec élan.

Elan SE turbo 1992
Emira 2023
Mercedes Benz C200 estate
Lotus Evija Danish edition
User avatar
Fredjohn
God
 
Posts: 2537
Joined: Tue 21.08.2012, 00:30
Location: Malvern, Worcs

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby epipete » Mon 29.02.2016, 12:14

I hate to be an Arse but couldn't we create two threads from the excellent article? One the rebuild from Henk and the other, the parts acquisition. Thus I wouldn't have to open up a massive thread just to hear John say


Fredjohn wrote:
Schei**e :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
You know more than you think you know, just as you know less than you want to know. ... Oscar Wilde
User avatar
epipete
God
 
Posts: 2415
Joined: Wed 17.08.2011, 11:03
Location: Chippenham

Re: Turbo rebuild (picture heavy!)

Postby HJ2 » Mon 29.02.2016, 12:32

Why? Now you'll have it all in one handy topic :lol:

I will continue to edit the first post when there is something new to report.
I Just now practiced my best German in a very polite way, just to find a 'not so communicative' counter party at the other end of the telephone line :evil:
Some basic skills in politeness would come in handy for some :roll: Gees, not even a good morning or goodbye... :poke:

However: He is on the case! (hopefully)
My experience till now is that everybody advertises with re-cores, but nobody deliveres :(
A solution would be good for everyone with turbo troubles.
A recore is imho the best solution as you get a new or refurbed AND balanced assembly that you can easily replace yourself. :cheers:
No need to send it away and have someone else do the work you can do yourself. Here in the Netherlands a re-core is about 50% of the price of a refurb! :bonk:
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
User avatar
HJ2
Wodan - God of the Low Lands
 
Posts: 4405
Joined: Fri 06.06.2008, 10:54
Location: Delft, the Netherlands

Next

Return to Turbos, Boost, and Intakes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests