how much oil can I expect to use

[John_W]

It is, and they are.

[Rambo]

Thanks for confirming that John.

I think Rob must have been looking at one of his coolant hoses rather than the oil return pipe ?

[Rob P]

Thanks for confirming that John.
I think Rob must have been looking at one of his coolant hoses rather than the oil return pipe ?

Nope and Nope guys, I think this is where the issue is then guys, this is definitely the return pipe and having had it off the car once already I can confirm it is filled with oil and not coolant. Remember this car was modified prior to my purchasing and as such I have only been aware of what was on since I got it but I have to admit having looked at this again today and thought long and hard about it it did make me wonder whether this should have been a more substantial piece of pipework.

Would anyone have a picture of what the pipe actually looks like and I will have to get one fabricated to suit the different Turbo I have on the car. The current pipework has an aluminium connector at the turbo end and is just a blue hose from there to the engine with Jubilee clips holding the pipe in place at each end. When this leaked the first time the garage fashioned a new pipe and connected it midway with a metal tbue but again held by Jubilee clips. I will try and take a picture tomorrow to show you.

Thanks for the feedback, think I might be getting to the root of a problem that has worried me for a while now

[HJ2]

Hello Rob.

Suffering from Insomnia and nothing better to do: here's some additional info that might help!

The original turbo is an IHI. You can find lot's of pictures here in one of my recent topics:
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=25030
I had similar symptoms. A faulty seal does not mean per definition that it would smoke all the time (but possible), but indeed at least causes blue smoke when changing gears or close throttle suddenly when flooring it

The IHI is water cooled, hence the 4 pipes: Oil in, Oil out, Coolant in, Coolant out.
The oil-out or drain can be seen in picture 63. This is a gravity-feed line. The pressure in the line is almost atmospheric (at least with the IHI)

The bearings provide an oil film between the shaft and the housing and on both sides of the thrust bearing (no ball bearings used). The film is pressurised and what seeps through is collected in the oil return pipe. It is very important that the routing of the oil return pipe is in such a way that gravity can do it's thing and there must be no bends or 'uphill' parts in this pipe.

The IHI has a metal 90 deg. bend oil return pipe. This pipe connects to the engine with a rubber pipe and 2 jubilee clips at both ends (the spring type, NOT the worm screw) So yes: It is held in position with just 2 clips. Don't worry about the silicon. I was thinking of upgrading this pipe to silicon on my car as well as it is easier to get in position.
As I read it from your comments, your return pipe is how it should be, but without any pictures from you, it is hard to tell, so please post a couple!

If your pipe is OK in lay-out and hardware, AND is leaking, you should be able to see this. There must be traces of oil on either end of the blue pipe or the connection on the turbo. the blue silicon pipe does not form a problem imho and is well suitable for the job as long as it's oil tight!

Now if there would be a leak, I suspect that the oil drain pipe on your turbo is RTV-ed without or with a damaged seal between turbo and return pipe. One should NEVER use RTV here, only a good gasket, as the RTV might block the line. Then you would have a pressure build up in the lubrication system of the turbo, forcing oil out in either the compressor or the turbine side. Since it smokes blue, I would say it is the turbine side. As suggested earlier, you should check the air intake pipe on the turbo for oil. This would all be internally.

A faulty gasket would be an easy and cheap fix for you. A faulty turbo means more money to spend. In my topic I give a fairly cheap alternative if a plain rebuild (40 Euro's or so) is not possible as with mine. Have a good read in my topic first

Off course this is all under the assumption that it IS your turbo causing the high oil consumption Valve stem seals is still possible and the classic cause for blue smoke. However since the area of your turbo has been oily I still suspect the turbo.

Are you sure you really have a turbo upgrade? or perhaps just the wastegate is ported or the compressor is changed?


Good luck!

[Rambo]

A very interesting and informative reply HJ

[HJ2]

I for one hope that my insomnia at least is good for somebody now!

[Rob P]

Morning HJ, sorry to hear about your insomnia but definitely very helpful to myself

the metal pip on your turbo gives me a real clear understanding of where my car differs.
Here are a couple of pictures of the current pipework
Pipework going to the bottom of the Turbo, as you can see it is Silicon hose all the way to the connector

IMG_2220.JPG

Pipework to Engine

IMG_2221.JPG

As can be seen the pipework on mine is very much all Silicon hose with the exception of the connector to the bottom of the turbo, I can also confirm that this pipe did have traces of oil on it which suggests this is where the oil is escaping, question now is where, the reason for the connection midway along the pipework is due to a previous failure off this pipe which ended up with hot oil showering the exhaust when the Turbo kicked in and there was lots of Blue smoke then I can tell you
I think I need to source somewhere locally who can supply a piece of metal pipework to take this from the bottom of the turbo and once away from the main heat source then I can utilise the silicon hoses from there to the engine itself, maybe from the point where the current straight connection sits.

Just for information on the Turbo I have a Garrett Turbo system which I believe was a Lotus Girl Marie update.

IMG_2218.JPG

IMG_2219.JPG

After taking the car out yesterday with it set on the highest boost and giving it some hard driving there currently appears to be no leak on this pipe but is that because I wasn't on a really log journey and hence there has been a small amount of oil loss through the Turbo and isn't quite noticable.

Lots of useful info to follow up on from HJ which is appreciated as is all the previous comments. Think I will get this pipe sorted as a first job and then refer back to these notes. Just one question and this relates to the gasket at the Turbo end, what material should this be, last time I had this pipe off It didn't have a gasket at all and I made one from normal Exhaust gasket material thinking that this would be able to stand the heat, it this OK or should I be using anything specific for this?
Thanks guys
Rob P

[HJ2]

Hi Rob,

Sorry, dunno a whole lot of the Garret turbo. If it is LGM's upgrade than you can expect it to be engineered properly. The silicon drain pipe on it's own should not cause a problem. Silicon is capable of handling way higher temperatures compared to the rubber compound of the OEM hoses.
However now that you have a joint in the pipe, this could act as a restrictor resulting in less flow through the pipe. I would get rid of the connector and use a one piece suitable hose.

So take it off and check if there are no restrictions in either pipe joint OR gasket to the turbo.
It sounds like the right material though. The turbo housing get's way less hot than the exhaust manifold, because it is water-cooled. When the joint does not leak oil and forms no restriction, then it should be fine imho

Perhaps Marie will show up and shed some more light on this particular turbo setup! You could always send here a PM and see if she responds.
It would be good to rule out the oil seal on the turbine (hot)-end. I imagine it works he same as the seal on the IHI, but i believe the garrett has ball bearings so not 100% sure here. If the piston ring oil seal fails (like mine) there would be your problem.

I would replace the worm wheel type clip for spring loaded ones. Is the silicon undamaged under the clips? When you over tight, they easily rupture....

[dapinky]

...... If it is LGM's upgrade than you can expect it to be engineered properly. The silicon drain pipe on it's own should not cause a problem. Silicon is capable of handling way higher temperatures compared to the rubber compound of the OEM hoses........

Late to the party on this thread as I've been away for Easter

I see the problem here

Firstly, I'd blame the bloke who fitted it all together

Secondly, Marie engineered it properly, but the bloke who changed the supplied parts may be considered a muppet

When it was first done, I used all the bits Marie sent, together with other bits which Paul sourced locally - no problem.....

.....when Paul had the issue in the Isle of Man (Turbo seperated from downpipe due to bolts failing), the hot exhaust fell down and damaged some of the proper pipework.

Whilst I was lying in a gravel car park in the pi$$ing down rain somewhere in the middle of nowhere, I had no access to braided oil hose, and sent Nobby off to get some M8 bolts and a length of rubber pipe - he returned with some M8 bolts and a bit of hosepipe! (still not sure how or where he managed to buy them at that time of a Sunday evening, but I never asked!!!).

Anyway, a temporary repair was executed - enough to continue the holiday and get home - - the bolts were replaced with decent Stainless ones, and the hosepipe with the Samco hose, as it was all he could find in the garage to do the job at that time.

I SUSPECT THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE (but I may be wrong!).

Silicone hoses, as Henk-Jan says, will easily take the temperatures involved - but they don't like oil

Petrochemicals can soften, dissolve, weaken the structure of the hose - hence they are never used for oil/fuel systems.

I told Paul to get it changed ASAP, and assumed it had been done, but never checked (my bad.).

The oil return hose doesn't take any pressure, but just returns oil to the sump by gravity (plus residue pressure from where it is squirted into the turbo), but it does need to be oil-safe rubber (braded to match the rest if you want to) hose.

[Rambo]

I see I didn't call the mad Welshman Twatkins for nothing

[HJ2]

Learned someting today: standard silicone hose is not compatible with oil
Unless a fluor liner is used, but i highly doubt it!

Gotta love LEC and the knowledge aboard the forum.

[Rambo]

If it were me, I'd replace those Samco silcon hoses in the oilways and replace with metal asap. Then a complete oil change and flush. You don't want any of that nasty stuff going to the engine and turbo

[Rob P]

Cheers Dave appreciate the update and the details which are a source of some relief for now. I will be taking the pipework off tomorrow and taking it to a specialist to get a metal replacement made up pronto

After that it will be a flush out and replacement oil and filter installed and see what happens.

Reading through this has been useful as I'm now tempted to move to 10W60 oil as there seems to be a few oil suppliers whose recommendation is 10W60 for the Elan M100. I know that there are varied thoughts on oil type on here ranging from 0W40 through to 10W60. But prepared to give this a go and see whether the car likes it.

Thanks again for all the help guys. I just need the weather to behave and work to be quiet and I'll get out under the car tomorrow and get on with making the changes

[tigerdog]

I love this forum! Where else can a person buy a used car with nonstandard parts, have something go amiss, and receive background on the oddness and meaningful suggestions on how to fix? For free? And with great humour?

[HJ2]

Life would just not be the same without Muppets!