coolant problem

[roy666]

Sorry.. my bad... Jon's is £50 phr labour..

[Rambo]

Bad news Roy

Elan workshop/labour time schedule quotes the following.

HG replacement - 8 hours

Water pump - 4.4 hours

Looks like the piggy bank is going to take a hammering this month

[lotusflasherman]

So Gerald fitted a water pump that has failed very quickly ( a duff one) and caused HGF. Sounds like pump was 'not fit for purpose' so surely Gerald should be doing all the work at no cost to you. Gerald in turn should be reclaiming from pump supplier. If the impeller comes off and no water is circulating in the head there will be serious overheating in certain regions of the head before heat gets to the temp gauge sensor, near the thermostat, to start driving the Temp Gauge upwards so don't accept any arguments saying 'you should have noticed the gauge reading high' - was already too late by the time that happened.

Have you contacted Gerald to tell him that you've found the pump he fitted has failed ?

[dapinky]

The first port of call should always be to the guy who did the last work (obviously, this only applies if it's relevant work!).

The pump will have a waranty on it, and will possibly only cover the cost of the unit - however, the fitter is required to replace it fully if it fails within a short time (and thus is considered 'Not fit for purpose').... There are slightly different rules if you provided the pump for fitting, but if he did a 'supply and fit' then you are well protected.

I would advise you to thouroughly investigate the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

I am making a few assumptions along the way - ie, that you are a 'Consumer' under the definitions of the Act, and not an 'Interim Trader'.

You may feel that it is appropriate to seek further advice away from a public forum where everything is available for everyone to see/retain/reveal in the future

[Rambo]

As an example......

When I bought my van I asked for the cambelt, water pump, tensioner and idlers to be replaced as a condition of sale. This was carried out but within 40 miles I had a serious failure which I had a gut feel must have been related to the above work. The van was relayed back to the garage, stripped down and found to be a faulty tensioner. The faulty part(s) were replaced and all work was carried out at no expense to myself. I believe they got back money from the supplier for the faulty part(s) plus some of the labour costs

Cost me nothing, bar the inconvenience of a breakdown and a 2 hour wait for the RAC. The garage even loaned me their Mitsubishi pick up whilst the repair was carried out

Incidentally, the handling on the Mitsubishi was awful. It wallowed round corners and made me travel sick

[Simon_P]

I would advise you to thouroughly investigate the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

He said " I failed to notice it " which is a good summary of the situation - How did we get on to consumer rights so quickly? Have GTS refused to replace the water pump?

Roy, how do you know that the head gasket has failed? Just getting a bit hot and blowing the water out isn't a symptom of hgf.

Have you spoken to GST? I would start there they will be as surprised as you are that the pump has failed.

[roy666]

Ok - it was the circlip on the shaft that holds the impeller. That snapped and the impeller stayed on the shaft but did'nt move, the pieces of the clip were found in the housing... I'll put some pics up as soon as I get them from Jon. I've had good chat with Gerald and as you would expect he is amazed it was the water pump and has offered to reimburse me the me the cost of the pump and the labour for fitting it. He's gutted and is going to take a closer look at any further pumps he fits. Jon has fixed the pump with a new circlip. I was a bit concerned about that (just replace the whole thing), but Jon is pretty sure a new circlip that fits properly is all that's needed. Head going on today... and then the Bill!.. yikes! M

[roy666]

Ok chaps.. here is the conundrum for you Sherlock’s out there. Jon has been doing some great work but I now stymied. Head gasket has been changed, head skimmed, pressure testes, water pump working, impeller changed. And we are still getting the coolant bubbling up under too much pressure. We’ve drained the system, undone most of the hoses, stream cleaned, back purges hoses. Refilled, drained as much as we can, Turn engine on.. it slowly heats up and finally bubbles up out of the header tank. When it driven the water temp just goers up and up… but this time we stop before it blows the gasket again,

Any ideas out there.. jon think the block is cracked and sucking in air!

[dapinky]

Any ideas out there.. jon think the block is cracked and sucking in air!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but from what you list as having already been changed/elliminated I think he may be correct.

Air is getting in there somehow (when i say 'air' I mean 'gas', which may or may not be 'air'). As the head has been pressure tested, I presume you mean that it was done 'off the car' by a specialist and no leaks were found.

A new gasket is fitted, and all relevant other bits checked.... it only really leaves the block.

It is possible to test a block for cracks/leaks, but it entails stripping the whole lot down again and a specialist engine workshop plugging bits and preasurising it. They need to simulate compression pressures, so it isn't as straightforward as a head test.

Blocks (being made of thick cast iron/steel) dont tend to warp or go permeable like aluminium heads, and are generally considered to be fairly indestructable...... however, by its nature, this metal is 'brittle' and doesn't take shock so easily as aluminium.

The 2 types of shock are impact and/or thermal...... hence a block may crack or shatter if a conrod fails and hits the piston wall - this is usually very easy to spot as you will see bits of engine fly through the bonnet and deposit themselves over a radius of a few feet....

... thermal shock is usually caused by running an engine hot and then suddenly cooling it.

At any time during this story could this have happened? Has anyone poured cold (for that, I mean anything lower than boiling) water into a hot engine?

It is unlikely (although possible) that running an engine with insufficient cooling *could* cause a crack, but thermal shock is far more likely... but unfortunately, getting someone to admit to having done it isn't easy (they are likely to have known if they caused it, because it isn't a silent occurrence).

[CalElan]

I would re-do the pump tests as above just to ensure that this time all was good.
Same symptoms, same problem? Worth a check - before another strip down.
Good luck!

[Simon_P]

What circlip? The impeller is a press fit!
As is the bearing to the housing and the pulley to the other end. Any circlips are mere spectators.

[lotusflasherman]

It is possible to test a block for cracks/leaks, but it entails stripping the whole lot down again and a specialist engine workshop plugging bits and pressurising it. They need to simulate compression pressures, so it isn't as straightforward as a head test.

The Electricity Supply Industry used Rocol Aerosol Spray Kits for crack testing anything that needed it. Best one penetrated the finest cracks and was fluorescent under UV light so dead easy to see cracks. I used to 'borrow one' when I needed to check engine components so never actually bought one. The Safety Data was a bit long with 'Dont's' so not sure if that one particular one is still made, but found one here -> Rocol-Flaw-Finder-Kit on ebay or Demon Tweeks sell a cheaper version Flawtek-Flaw-Detection-3-Part-Kit

Might be worth a punt as you can check with the engine still in the car with just head removed, 2 bores at a time..

[muley]

When you say head was 'pressure tested' ~ did that refer to the waterways?

The reason I ask is; I have seen 2 Elan heads with a crack adjacent to the valves. I'm wondering if combustion gases are getting through such a crack..

Hope you get it sorted.

Rgds

Jim

[roy666]

Hi Guys – I’ve been away for a while but I thought, just for completion, I should finish this thread off. So in the end, when I finally got the car over to Gerald at GTS he immediately checked the water pump and it had indeed failed big time. All the impeller blades had come off. Considering it was a new pump it’s just crazy that it failed so quickly. Anyway, it cost me a HGF. Gerald was very good and replaced it free of charge. Hope I don’t have to go through that again! M

[HJ2]

Holy cow!

How is the bearing on the pump? Could the impellor have touched the casing?

You were so right in not wanting to install the same pump again

I am just curious: is this one of the pumps where the housing interfers with the engine if it is not grinded or cut to fit???

[roy666]

Hi HJ, apparently the bearing was ok.. some how the blades just all came off. Strange, and difficult to comprehend, but there you are. This was not one of the pumps that needed to be grinded to be fitted; I checked and its all flush, although I can't recall what type of pump GTS put on, but if I know Gerald he'll never use that type of pump again. M

[CalElan]

Hi Guys – I’ve been away for a while but I thought, just for completion, I should finish this thread off. So in the end, when I finally got the car over to Gerald at GTS he immediately checked the water pump and it had indeed failed big time. All the impeller blades had come off. Considering it was a new pump it’s just crazy that it failed so quickly. Anyway, it cost me a HGF. Gerald was very good and replaced it free of charge. Hope I don’t have to go through that again! M

Is that a picture of the replacement pump?
It sure went rusty in no time..

[roy666]

Yep - that is the replacment pump... it was only in the car 2 months! But what can you say?... sods law.. or somehting else?
M

[Simon_P]

It went rusty because it was used in plain water. Cast iron will rust in seconds, that's why you should change your coolant regularly, as the inhibitors get used up.

[Rambo]

My thoughts too Simon. Used in water and not anti freeze of the correct strength. Although I'd find this surprising given GSTs reputation