Small (or maybe not) project. 91 elan

[Rambo]

im considering ordering the spares regardless mainly for the purpose of having then if need be

Commonly known in the trade as BBDP

Blue Beast Dico Philosophy

[Tuga2112]

after seeing Toby's video twice i was confident it was a 20 minute job.. so packs have now been swapped.. and theres good news and bad news....

the good news is... i have diagnosed one of the issues with the blue elan...
the bad news is... the yellow elan may have damaged coils.. the test was... inconclusive at best.

the yellow car started and iddle ok-ish but very soon it missfired.. this time it missfired losing a lot of revs. while before it would just lose a tiny bit.
the rev meter also stopped working.. which was an issue on the blue elan initially (that i was not worried about) which after revisiting Tobys video makes sence refering the brown wire that goes into the tacho..

the engine light also came on (an issue known on the blue car) although i wasnt able to get a code... i shorted A and B terminals, turned the key.. and nothing.. then turned a bit more.. and nothing.. then turned a bit more and the car started... but the engine light would not stop flashing at all
i have no idea what that means tho. tomorow. im putting back the original coils and try again. just for the sake of being 100% sure the faults are related to the blue car's parts.

[Tuga2112]

put back the yellow car control module using the blue car coils.

the engine light did go away. and the car seems to not be missing any sparks. although this could be just related to the fact its been dry for another 2 days now.

im gonig to drive it to work tomorow hoping for the best. and will see how it goes.

also ordered 2 control modules from brit car nut which one is sure to go on the blue car, and the second may end up in the yellow car if i find the issue persists. otherwise becomes a spare, and ordered 2 coil packs from ebay which shall arrive on friday so i can be 100% sure the issue is not the packs.

now its just a matter of waiting and seeing how the car behaves for the rest of the week

[Tuga2112]

started the car this morning (at the moment with Yellow car control module and blue car's coils
and the engine light came back.. together with rev readings that were unusually high (the car was surprisingly quiet for 2k revs).
What are the chanses of damaging a control module by removing and refitting it ? or swapping the coils with damaged coils ?

im planning to get back home after work and change back the coils, to end up with the exact same parts the yellow car had before i started messing about.
is it possible i've broken something while changing the coils/module?
All i did was remove the air intake, drain the coolant tank, pushed the tank to the side and removed the 4 coil bolts.

im finding the recent developments returning awkard results at best..

[dapinky]

Just one thought, Joao.....

.... when you were swapping all the bits over, did you use the small nylon washers to isolate the back plate? There is an earth wire (IIRC) on a loop which connects against the metal base plate, but there is a small nylon washer which isolates the plate (I don't know if it's to purely locate it properly, or to do with the electrical connection needing to not touch certain bits to give a false reading somewhere).

They can be seen in the parts manual, Page 40.17B.

I don't know how important they are, but it may be worth checking that they haven't fallen out.

[Tuga2112]

Just one thought, Joao.....

.... when you were swapping all the bits over, did you use the small nylon washers to isolate the back plate? There is an earth wire (IIRC) on a loop which connects against the metal base plate, but there is a small nylon washer which isolates the plate (I don't know if it's to purely locate it properly, or to do with the electrical connection needing to not touch certain bits to give a false reading somewhere).

They can be seen in the parts manual, Page 40.17B.

I don't know how important they are, but it may be worth checking that they haven't fallen out.

the 4 bolts/screws i removed had no washers of any kind attached in neither car.
i seen the page your refering in the parts manual, i think the bolts your referring to are the ones that hold the metal plate where the control module rests into the chassis.
where the bolts i removed are the ones the hold both the coils and the control module to the metal plate.
its a bit strange that the parts manual has no reference to the 4 bolts i have removed.
i will post pictures later when im back home

[Brit-Car-Nut]

I found the coil mounting bolt part number by looking at the US cars that also used those coils, possibly using the Isuzu parts book. Eventually, I found a Lotus part number.

I also have some of the nylon step and flat washers that I ordered years ago. Replacing those is a real bugger.

[Tuga2112]

you can see the 4 bolts i removed.
the back of the plate is metal indeed, i can add a rubber washer in the back to make sure the metals dont touch, although i didnt find anything there when i removed the module in either car.

maybe geoff can shed some light ?

EDIT
took engine codes now. its code 42, Electronic Spark Timing circuit
one strange thing about the code. is that unlike the description on the wiki. the only way i can get a code is by actually starting the engine. turning the key to the "on" position doesnt let me get any codes... which seems very odd, cus that makes it impossible for me to get a code if the car is not starting ?




ill be waiting on ideas for a couple of hours while resting from a long day of work.. and will probably put back the yellow car's coils in there to continue experimenting later on. unless i find something else to look for while reading the manuals.

EDIT again

had a look at the wiring diagram for the engine. and Dave is correct there are 2 grounds. 1 from the wire and 1 at the braket. Both ground wires are supposed to be connected to the inlet manifold as far as i understand from reading the manual.. which to my understanding. there would be continuity between those 2. although if one is not working it could explain the error code.
also from reading the diagram. Red is the ignition . so a quick check between red and black. would prove theres a decent circuit for power (if 12v appear) and red to the bracket metal should also give 12v as long as the key is on the "II" position.

i believe the ECM is behind the glovebox.. if i can find its connector i could unplug the battery and also check for continuity between each of the 4 yellow wires.
this is the only kind of diagnosis i can think of performing which can only confirm that the wiring is fine in the car.

[Tuga2112]

11.9v between black and red, also 11.9v between red and metal plate.

Yes my battery is a bit lower than ideal but the car does start fine, and has started without issues in the past with lower voltages than that without problems.

[Tuga2112]

just found in the engine management manual a pretty compreensive explanation of the the reasons that trigger code 42 to happen. and a detailed test procedure.
i will be re-reading these and perform the checks if possible. from the quick glance i had so far seems like a multimeter and some patience should be enough to make progress.
im finding it strange that in the page theres no refernece at all about a faulty coil causing the code to appear. which, at the moment are the only parts in the car that were not there before the engine light appeared.

im also going to be double checking the connection of the back plate of the control module to the metal plate. my understanding is that those 2 are supposed to have a good connection in order to provide ground to the control module. From earlier test,i know the metal plate is a good ground, im wondering if the back of the control module is to dirty or possibly the bolts are not tight enough to create a stable connection there (which would also likely create an unstable connection to the coils as well).

[Tuga2112]

coils shoudl arrive today.
in the meanwhile i took the setup apart again, and did a few continuity tests around the ICM, the rear plate had some areas that were not connecting. so i fixed that problem. and used contact cleaner in all the contacts avaiable in both ICM and coil packs.
fitted everything back. and the engine code did not return on start up.
the engine is still having the ocasional missfire tho. and interestingly enough. it feels like "hunting" for a stable iddle. it starts up revving high. slowly decreases revs up till the point it missfires. then one of the air valves opens (i heard it clearly this time because the intake tube was not fitted) it picks up the revs again. and the cicle restarts.

i will be fitting the new coils as soon as they arrive.

in the event the problem is not related to coils or ICM, what else should i be looking at ?

[Tuga2112]

im still coil-less. and seems like customs is holding on the control modules withiout getting in touch with me.
i bought the coils from a uk seller for the sake of getting them quicky, but hermes lost the package... after getting things cleared to have them re-posted. 2 days later i get an email telling me the seller has ran out and cant get replacements....
so... im back on stage one, ordering another pair of coils from a different seller, which hopefully will arrive on tuesday.

as far as the customs. i was expecting an email from them. according to BCN its been in the uk since the 25th and i heard nothing. is this normal ?

[Brit-Car-Nut]

A while ago I got an email saying the package left Customs today (2:21pm) and it is back in Parcelforce's possession. I assume they will either deliver directly or drop off at your local Post Office.

UK Customs are impossible to figure out and I never have any idea what they are trying to do.

I sent you the tracking number and a link so you could keep track on where the package was...

[Rambo]

as far as the customs. i was expecting an email from them. according to BCN its been in the uk since the 25th and i heard nothing. is this normal ?

No. Having dealt with Rockauto and/or UK Customs 3 or 4 times in the past I've never had any problems with either

[Tuga2112]

as far as the customs. i was expecting an email from them. according to BCN its been in the uk since the 25th and i heard nothing. is this normal ?

No. Having dealt with Rockauto and/or UK Customs 3 or 4 times in the past I've never had any problems with either

I've dealt with rockauto a few times. The first time I got email from royal mail to pay the customs fees before delivery. All other more recent experiences, I think the duty was already included in the prices displayed because they stopped at customs for 2 days and then just proceeded without any emails sent to me.

I have checked my spam folder and nothing there either. I guess I'll give it to wednesday and if nothing happens will try to contact parcel force

[Rambo]

You're correct. The duty should be included in the prices these days making everything speedier. It was a pain in the ass in the old days when yoj got a separate demand for taxes at a later date

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Unfortunately, people like me don't have access to those functions.
For anther order, I am trying a new broker later this week and They say they will handle clearance, but they are using FedEX as their transport, so I don't know.

If it works out, I will price shift cable shipping costs with them and see if they will be any less expensive than USPS.

[Tuga2112]

Unfortunately, people like me don't have access to those functions.

not to worry John. no one is pointing the finger.
i was not aware you had a business and this was a business transaction for starters.
but even with that in mind, i know how complex the tax system is over the border (spent 2 hours reading the paperwork before giving up), and im also aware of the software development dificulty and costs involved into such feature for a website. (worked in similar projects in the past for Peugeot).

i will update here when i get some news on either the control modules delivery or when the coil packs arrive.
after all the iterations i have tried with the 2 sets i have, i suspect either all my coils are damaged, or both modules are on the brink, or (unfortunately, seems more likely) the problem is elsewhere.

reason why i was asking for alternative diagnostic routes on a previous post.

[Brit-Car-Nut]

Unfortunately, people like me don't have access to those functions.

not to worry John. no one is pointing the finger.
i was not aware you had a business and this was a business transaction for starters.

Just to clarify and maybe to help others to know me better, I am NOT running a business. Those days ended a long time ago.

I bought my "project M100" 11 years ago with plans to repair it properly and started buying up spare parts that were suggested by others as being prone to failure and also difficult to source when needed.

I HAD run a MG Repair and Parts Supply business for a long time, so already had contacts in place in the UK that had been supplying me directly from BL's warehouses, so using the knowledge gained from over 15 years of bulk shipments, I started adding multiples of spare parts to my M100 project.

I even was allowed a "personal" visit to the Lotus factory where I got a close look at the current manufacturing processes as well as some (many) repair tips for repairing the body on my project.

Unfortunately, in 2007 I developed leukemia and had to stop the repair/rebuild project for many years but I kept sourcing and buying spare parts for the future.

With my newest medical challenge, I realize that I will be hard pressed to finish car #1 and the other three that I had planned to get back into driving condition will no longer be possible.

I have always shared my research and any other information I found over the years but I now have a fairly large collection of spare parts for the M100, so I offer bits as necessary to help others that need them, thus the LEC listings for some of the more common solutions as well as hints that I will "look through" my spares to see if I can help anyone with spare part needs. I still have decent connections with suppliers of GM parts so that has helped in getting original GM based parts that were used on the M100. I am also pretty good at researching what GM and other parts were used to create the M100.

The replacement shift cable kits came about because mine broke and I didn't like the AB cables I bought. There was some other political drama there, but it is no longer important. I also still make a "to order" kit for the front Anti Roll Bar Ball Joint issue, but a lot of users have just used washers and basic hardware while I machine a proper spacer, use high strength hardware and provide a decent seal set for the rod ends.

So, I have a lot of spare parts. I will hopefully finish M100 #1 and keep enough spare bits to keep it on the road, but most all other projects have been shelved and a lot of the odd spare parts are available to anyone that asks "nicely".

Shipping to the UK is challenging, but a LOT of US owners have been able to benefit from my "scrounging" over the years.

Some prices will be great while others will be crazy, but they are based on what I paid to get the parts including shipping (cargo containers are not cheap).

Anyone that emails me asking for a part or service solution will be answered as soon as I can get to it. The really big parts will need to be collected since I don't have any great access to affordable shipping except for USPS, FedEX, UPS. Trucking is outside my comfort zone but anyone is welcome to "visit" and collect parts directly.

[alan e]

Just to say a big thank you John for all the help you have given over the years and i am sure in saying we all wish you well take care.