How much free-play at steering wheel?

[Bern]

Quick question, hopefully there'll be a quick answer!

How much free-play should there be at the steering wheel?

Cheers, Bern.

[quiksilva]

On the few i test drove before buying very little - probably the most direct steering of any car ive yet to drive. Have you developed excessive play recently or has it always been there do you think?

andy

[Rambo]

Next to none in either of mine

[Bern]

Thanks for the quick replies.

To me the steering has always felt quite stiff, it's not all that keen to self centre. I've adjusted it back so far that there was definitely too much play in it and am slowly tightening it up to try and get to the best compromise between stiffness and play!

Since I posted this I've thought that it could be the track rod ends!? I think the joints on the hub carrier are fine, the top one is new.

I'll try and post a video on YouTube perhaps!

It's certainly less play than my van or Lupo, I thought that a PAS system always had a bit of play (as that's how it works).

[quiksilva]

The m100 pas is to me a very noisy and lazy snake sounding system that offers the barest minimum of assistance to the driver, suits me fine but nothing like the modern speed sensitive types found in most cars now

[Bern]

A short video here:

Elan steering play

(it'll probably be up for an Oscar next year)

[Bern]

The m100 pas is to me a very noisy and lazy snake sounding system that offers the barest minimum of assistance to the driver, suits me fine but nothing like the modern speed sensitive types found in most cars now

I'd probably be happier with no PAS at all! But I find that, especially from cold, I have to straighten the wheel rather than it self centering. The caster angles should be correct.

[Rambo]

A short video here:

Elan steering play

(it'll probably be up for an Oscar next year)

Actually Bern, that was about the limit of the steering play on my 1st M100

[par]

The symptoms sound similar to what you get when the universal joint that joins the steering column to the rack gets excessively worn, has this been checked or changed recently?

A cheap part to buy but a bit of a bugger to fit, due to where it is located

[Bern]

The symptoms sound similar to what you get when the universal joint that joins the steering column to the rack gets excessively worn, has this been checked or changed recently?

A cheap part to buy but a bit of a bugger to fit, due to where it is located

Yes, I changed it a few years ago, made no difference. And yes, it was a bugger to fit!

[Bern]

Earlier today I jacked up the front of the car and separated the track rod ends from the hub.

The hubs turn freely, and the track rod ends seem to move freely too.

However even with nothing attached to it the rack feels stiff to move.

Oddly it gets stiffer at about 1/4 turn to either side. If I turn it quickly from side to side the stiffness moves to 1/2 then 3/4 turn. But when I stop it returns to 1/4 turn. I screwed out the adjuster and it made no difference.

That's with the engine off, with it on it's not noticeable.

As an aside, I've noticed that there is a smell of warm PAS fluid occasionally during a long drive. I keep forgetting to check the temperature of the reservior when I stop. Is it perhaps the PAS working harder against the stiffness?

Am I looking at a steering rack rebuild?

[nigelpen]

I have read with interest various heavy steering 'problems' on this forum, as well as your own and thought I would add my own twopenny worth.

I think it is fair to say that the steering on most M100's is not as light as modern PAS systems. That is certainly true of my SE turbo which is low mileage.

However I also have an S2 and have tried to resolve this problem as it just didn't feel right. The universal joint at the bottom of the steering column had been replaced along with some suspension ball joints and track rod ends. The power steering fluid was changed... no noticeable difference. I therefore took the plunge and arranged to have the rack and power steering pump replaced. Better but not brilliant!

So if you are contemplating replacing the rack, bear in mind it does involve a large amount of work and especially cost if you are unable to do it yourself. I would certainly look at any other alternatives you might have and maybe try another car to see how it compares. Over the years I have driven other M100's and would say they all have slightly different handling characteristics. Whether that is due to age or set up it is difficult to say.

I also recently read on this forum about adjusting the take up on the pinion, but as far as I could see this only really takes up play and then at the possible trade-off of stiffness. I do have a spare rack and tried it on this one first with that result, I also saw there is a small oil fill plug in the rack by the pinion, this and the amount of oil needed is mentioned in the manual. As there was a slight squeaking sound coming from my rack when jacked I suspected lack of oil, however this filler plug would seem inaccessible when the rack in in place and my garage thought it unlikely to be the problem.

So even after all the work carried out I dont really think I am a lot further forward, which is a bit disappointing. However I wish you luck with whatever you decide, should you come up with a 'magic' formula I would be delighted to hear it!

[Bern]

Hi Nigel, thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

I've only driven one other M100, but that was quite modified and so difficult to compare. I can't remember thinking that the steering felt odd like mine does when I climb back into it after driving anything else. The steering on my old Land Rover is very heavy (though not too bad when moving), but always centralises really nicely. Not centralising always catches me out on the Elan if I haven't driven it for a while.

I've been playing with the pinion adjustment and have taken it back to the point where the play is noticeable when driving, and then adjusted the play out. I've not much experience of PAS, my previous classics have never had it, and the moderns have not had any PAS problems. But I'd have thought with nothing connected to the steering (track rod ends disconnected) then it should be really light.

I was hoping that I'd finally found the issue (after replacing just about everything else steering and suspension related), and that replacing the rack would be the answer (despite knowing how difficult it would be), so I'm slightly worried that you didn't get a solution when you changed yours.

The previous owner barely used the car (it's still now on only 53k), I'm wondering if this is why. Or maybe I just don't "get" the Elan and there is nothing wrong with it. I'd sell it but I'd hate to pass a bad one on to someone else, and having sunk a lot of time and money into it I'd really like to keep and enjoy it.

I was going to look at topping up the oil, but it looked like the filler would be difficult to get to, and you've confirmed it.

I think I'll have to replace the rack, as it's the only thing left to do!

Thanks again,

Bern.

[Simon_P]

Bern,
Difficult to comment on feel.

Looking at your video you will have to make do with a BAFTA. You get the Oscar for driving without assistance.
There is a good description of how the system provides assistance in the WSM. Follow the instructions there on how to set the play, doing anything else isn't beating the system it's either OK when set correctly or it's not not. Roughly the assistance works by providing pressure to pistons on both sides. The connection to the column is a torsion bar as you turn the wheel the bar twists opening a valve, the more effort you apply the more it twists, the further the valve is opened and more assistance is provided.
When you switch the engine on most of the play you are demonstrating will go.

Other things to note
With the engine off you are pushing fluid around the system, but it should feel free
Have you felt how heavy the steering is without assistance
The valving of the rack was changed from SE to S2 - worth a read
It's a sports car feel is part of the experience so comparison with a daily drive isn't really relevant.

[dapinky]

I know it isn't as simple as I may make it seem........

...... but as there seem to be a fair few people with 'stiff steering' issus at the moment (and all elans are the same age) - I wondered how hard it would be to fit an electric system as per Vauxhall Corsa C - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2001-2006-VA ... .l4275.c10

It is apopular thing to fit to various classics (escorts etc) - and I'm sure it could be done.......

[Bern]

Thanks chaps.

Bern,
Difficult to comment on feel.

Looking at your video you will have to make do with a BAFTA. You get the Oscar for driving without assistance.
There is a good description of how the system provides assistance in the WSM. Follow the instructions there on how to set the play, doing anything else isn't beating the system it's either OK when set correctly or it's not not. Roughly the assistance works by providing pressure to pistons on both sides. The connection to the column is a torsion bar as you turn the wheel the bar twists opening a valve, the more effort you apply the more it twists, the further the valve is opened and more assistance is provided.
When you switch the engine on most of the play you are demonstrating will go.

Other things to note
With the engine off you are pushing fluid around the system, but it should feel free
Have you felt how heavy the steering is without assistance
The valving of the rack was changed from SE to S2 - worth a read
It's a sports car feel is part of the experience so comparison with a daily drive isn't really relevant.

Thanks for the write-up, I did look at the WSM at the weekend, it looks like it's much easier to set up the steering when it's on a bench rather than on the car! That's an interesting point about pushing the fluid around the system, that explains what I can feel.

I remember that on a car I was working on quite a few years ago (might have been a Spitfire), that with only the column attached I could easily spin the wheel to get the rack to move from one side to the other.

It's actually the lack of feel that worries me, that and the not centralising and the occasional smell of hot PAS fluid. It's not leaking, and I've not actually checked if it's hot when I stop. But it all makes me think that it's tighter than it should be and therefore the PAS is working harder.

From memory, with the engine running it makes no difference to the play, I'll take a look and maybe post another video. And hope for a "Best demonstration of steering play in a Lotus Elan setting" award.

I know it isn't as simple as I may make it seem........

...... but as there seem to be a fair few people with 'stiff steering' issus at the moment (and all elans are the same age) - I wondered how hard it would be to fit an electric system as per Vauxhall Corsa C - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2001-2006-VA ... .l4275.c10

It is apopular thing to fit to various classics (escorts etc) - and I'm sure it could be done.......

My R55 MINI has electric PAS, the Cooper S has a "sport" mode which gives less assistance (I think) - that could be useful! Are you thinking that one could remove the current PAS hydraulics and replace with an electric set up? Interesting idea, if so.

[dapinky]

My R55 MINI has electric PAS, the Cooper S has a "sport" mode which gives less assistance (I think) - that could be useful! Are you thinking that one could remove the current PAS hydraulics and replace with an electric set up? Interesting idea, if so.

Something like that - see how easy and simple it sounds when you say it quickly

The Corsa uses the same system as the Golf (not sure if it is the same as the Mini, but I would expect it to be very similar, if not identical) - on the Vauxhall, there is an electronic 'box of tricks' which is optional, and allows you to take an input from the rev counter to vary the level of assistance - I know nowt about it, but (in the words of Clemo).... "how hard could it be???"

The Vauxhall column assembly *may* be a close fit for the Elan one (as both are GM - but who knows) - the current stalks *may* fit - but why not use modern ones??? - dunno about steering wheel fitments or any of that malarky - but surely it must be possible to replace the current setup with something worth having (and save a shed load of weight in the process - and give better access to lots of things in the engine bay - like brake cylinder and altenator - if the PAS system is removed....

[Bern]

I recall seeing an installation for an MGB. I think you'd want assistance based on road speed rather than engine speed, from memory the system I saw had a magnetic or optical device that looked at something fitted to the prop shaft.

Easysteer

It'd be nice to get rid of those rusty looking PAS pipes, and probably make changing the cam belt (a bit) easier!

But of course, it depends on if the problem I have is with the rack or the hydraulics. And would I be brave enough to try something like that?

[Fredjohn]

I've often wondered if electric steering could be a potential replacement. IIRC, the MG F/TF had electric PAS with variable speed related assistance.

Being a compact sports car rather than a small hatch could this also be a feasible route? (ignoring the GM connection)

[Bern]

Interesting, something like this I guess:

MG TF steering column

As Dave mentioned, there will be an electronic box of tricks somewhere. The difficult part is that it will all be part of the MG's ECU (I suspect), and you'd have to get just the steering part to talk to the Elan's ECU regarding the speed. Which is why I like the idea of the classic car kit. because the electronics will be self contained. But it would need to know how fast that car is going, and I'm not sure I'd want to fit something to a drive shaft. Maybe on the intermediate bearing/shaft somehow? Or even on the hub somehow (to work like an ABS sensor)?