Car will not start! Any ideas please?

[Mountainman]

Hello to all you good folk.

Not really had chance to fully enjoy my M100 this year due to misfire issue.
So basically it gradually got worse over a period of time, where in low gear driving
Slow the car would kangaroo judder.

I had the car MOT and oil changed and got advised to change the coils and leads, which was done.
At the same time I had the battery changed and 4 new turbo spark plugs put in.

Thought the car would run like a dream, how wrong was I, it would not start!
I checked the fuses all were okay. I also tried to run elan scan without success (don’t think my laptop liked the
Program).
Here is the thing and I am by no means no expert, I think it might be an immobiliser issue, I don’t think the immobiliser
Has been right since I bought the car a year and half ago.
I have the Gemini system fitted. I have had issues with the locking and hazards going off when the system was set.
I have had to disconnect the battery to reset and start the car in the past, on this occasion the car would not even turn
Over and try to start.
At the weekend when myself and uncle changed all the parts, we noticed there was no spark and the only way to start the
Car was to hot wire and it didn’t tick over probably it cut out after a minute or so and I had to keep my foot on the gas, even with my foot on the floor the car eventually cut out.

I am not sure but I’m thinking maybe the the immobiliser is playing havoc with the fuel pump and ignition and maybe the
Next step is auto technician? To bypass this, although I’m not 100% convinced this is the real issue.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Jamie

[MPx]

Someone who knows will be along soon, but in the meantime, some basics. Sounds to me like you may have more than one issue.

If it wont turnover (ie nothing happens when you turn the key) then that sounds like the immobiliser. Need to go through the lock/unlock sequence to reset and try again.
If it turns over but wont start, then most likely no spark or no fuel. I don't think the immobiliser will affect running, it stops the starter working. If you've been messing about with the HT side and it hasn't started since then I'd suspect the electrics - either you put something back wrong (like wrong leads on wrong coil or wrong firing order) or you disturbed something else while you were at it, didn't notice, and it needs putting back in place.
If it starts but wont run smoothly then there's loads and loads of things it could be and Elanscan will be your friend so you need to spend some time getting that to work.

Best of luck

[Rambo]

Sensible advice Mike

[Dave Eds]

Is the fuel pump making its normal noise when you turn the ignition on? If not then check the fuel cut off inertia switch is in the right position. If it is then I'm going with the immobilizer as the initial culprit.....

[Saltire]

Jamie

First question: is your car normally aspirated, an SE Turbo, or an S2? The alarms are different in each case.

If you have an S2, (Gemini Aquila alarm fitted as standard), I can explain how to isolate the immobiliser, but I won’t do that on the open forum for obvious reasons. If you’d like to PM or email me (addresses in my profile), I’ll send you some information that way.

That will eliminate the possibility of an immobiliser fault, but I’m inclined to agree with Mike; the immobiliser only prevents starting, so unless it has an intermittent fault such as a broken wire, your problem is likely to be elsewhere.

Elanscan is normally fairly tolerant of different laptops and configurations, and it will greatly simplify fault-finding, so it’s worth persevering with. What’s the exact problem? Will the program load, but just not communicate down the cable? If you describe the symptoms, one of the resident Elanscan gurus will probably be able to help.

As a matter of interest, do you get any fault codes on the Check Engine Light if you put the car into service mode?

[Mountainman]

Thanks for your superb feedback guys!

My car is the elan SE turbo, it is kept at a different address to my normal working week so purely
a weekend project until I move house.

So this weekend I’ll double check everything we did last weekend, HT leads in right place etc...
The fuel cut if switch sounds like something that might be worth checking and I will check for the
Noise on the pump.

I will try the elan scan again. Fortunately I have a week off work next week so plenty of time to
Try and sort things out.

[Mountainman]

Hi all

So finally I got the chance yesterday in the sunshine to check then work carried out the other weekend and it’s not
Good news I’m afraid I still could not get her to start.

I checked the leads were connected correctly and they were, I checked the inertia switch and all seemed as it should.
I checked for anything visible that did not look right that either myself or uncle could of knocked out of place and I did not
See any issues.

So I tried starting the car, the usual trying to turn over but no spark into life, but before that I listened for the fuel pump as suggested but I could not hear anything so my train of thought leads me to this issue.
What I am struggling with however is everything apart from the misfire which lead me in the first place to change the parts which are basic regular maintenance, the car started first time every time.

I tried the paper clip diagnostics and am 100% I carried this procedure out to the letter following the advice on the forum but not a single blinking EM light was noticed. So pretty annoyed with that.

The car has done 83k and is in beautiful condition and well looked after by previous owners with stamps and receipts in a binder so full I need a new one. Have I been unlucky? I will get to the bottom of this but seems like a tow to a garage is probably inevitable, I am pretty spooked when reading about potential issues with code 41 and new ÉCU,s ect...

Already spent quite a bit on the car, but I still love her and can’t wait to get back behind the wheel. On the plus side of things I’m slowing learning my way around the car and this is invaluable experience I guess.

[Rambo]

If you still can't hear your fuel pump click in and prime, you're going nowhere fast.

As Mike has previously mentioned, it could well be the immobiliser that is causing the problem. My car won't do anything if I just turn the key - it just sits there. Press the immobiliser button, turn the key and immediately you hear the fuel pump prime so my money is on the immobiliser

If you can hear the fuel pump prime and the engine still won't start you have secondary issues. It may well be that you have 2 concurrent problems - an ongoing immobiliser issue as you have previously mentioned and another issue associated with the work you have carried out

PS don't shoot me down or think I am being facetious, but I take it the battery connectors are on the correct terminals

[Saltire]

I have an immobiliser on the S2, which I fitted myself. As most of them do, it sets automatically after a period of time, and is unset by pressing the button on the alarm fob. The immobiliser interrupts the power to the fuel pump, so without that your car will never start.

You say the starter motor operates and the engine turns over. Have you checked for a spark at the plugs? If not, let’s just rule out any ignition problem. Take off the spark plug cover on top of the engine and remove a spark plug - they’re deeply recessed, but there’s a plug spanner in the toolkit if you have one with the car. Reconnect the plug to its lead and ensure a good earth to the plug body - laying it on the cam cover normally works. Now turn the engine over and see if there’s a decent spark at the plug terminals. If so, it’s a fuelling issue. If not, there’s an ignition issue anyway, and maybe a fuelling issue too, which would definitely point to the immobiliser as they generally cover both circuits.

Assuming there’s a spark, check fuse A3 in the fuse box ahead of the passenger door - this controls the fuel pump. If that’s OK, move on to the hood well behind the seats. I think on the SE, the fuel pump relay is on the front wall of the battery compartment below the hood well floor - should be the only relay in there. (On my S2 it’s in the left hand speaker compartment behind the passenger seat). Like this:

3E683880-49AA-49D0-9389-77A62D55CE57.jpeg

Terminal 5 on the relay has two white and green wires connected to it (see diagram below).

DD5F4239-FBF2-47D3-8DAA-D6DE763D1DFF.jpeg

One goes to the ECU, one to the fuel pump. Check using a meter or a test lamp that you have power to that terminal with the ignition switched on. The immobiliser is normally fitted in the circuit before this point, so if the immobiliser’s faulty, I’d expect there to be no power at that terminal. If you have power there and you have a spark at the plugs, we need to consider other options, but let’s get that far first. Do you know the exact make and model of the immobiliser, and where in the car it’s located?

Good luck, and keep us posted.

[Simon_P]

Sorry to hear your troubles.
Some basics to check and aid troubleshooting.

Is fuel getting to injectors?
Do you have a spark?
Is the base timing correct?

[Mountainman]

Hi all
Appreciate the feedback and Rambo I would never shoot anyone down mate for trying to help I take all advice onboard, I do believe the battery connections are correct but will double check.

I will buy or borrow a test kit and check the relays at the weekend.

I do not think i am getting a spark my uncle checked for this.

My knowledge is restricted sorry but I’m not sure if I’m getting fuel to the injectors and
I know absolutely nothing about base timing, that one goes beyond me.

The immobiliser is the Gemini, and from the moment I bought the car I always thought the system to
Be a bit temperamental but I just assumed this is how they are.

So basically sometimes to start the car I have to press the grey button on the fob which locks the doors
Only then would it start also to get out I would sometimes have to press the same button around 3 times before
The locks click open. Other times I would lock the car only to walk away and notice the hazards flashing intermittently after
About 30 seconds. I’m guessing to you all this all sounds a bit dodgy and perhaps I should of questioned it sooner but the
Car was working fine and I was okay with the little niggle on the immobiliser.

Thanks
Jamie

[Saltire]

Jamie

Which Gemini alarm do you have (there are several models)? Is there a model no on it? Can you describe the alarm fob? How many buttons and what colour? What's the normal set and unset process? Do you by any chance have an instruction book for it? I suspect there is more than one thing going on here, so let's try and eliminate them one by one!

[MPx]

I very rarely lock/unlock my car with the fob, so I really only use it for the immobilser. When I get in the car I have to press the grey button to lock the car and wait while the indicators flash three times. When they stop I can press the grey button again and the car unlocks and the indicators flash three times. I then have about 20 secs to start the car. If I fail to start it within that time then I need to restart the sequence and lock/unlock again.

If you use your locks more normally (ie lock it with the fob when you leave it, and open it with the fob when you return), then you should get about 20 secs from unlock to get into the car and start it. Its enough time, but not to fiddle about getting comfy, putting belts on etc. And if you are longer than 20 secs before trying to start then the immob will have cut in again.

HTH

[Mountainman]

Hi

I managed to find the details of the immobiliser and I believe it to be the Gemini Aquila 5160T.

It has a red button at the top and grey one below.

Thanks
Jamie

[Saltire]

That sounds like the standard fit S2 alarm, Jamie. I’ll have a look in my paperwork later when I’m in front of the laptop. If it is, I can send you detailed instructions on how to remove it. It’s a fun job . . .

[Mountainman]

Yeah, that would be great! Thanks for that.

[Saltire]

Jamie

You have (a long) email to your LEC email address

[Mountainman]

Hi all
Just thought I’d post an update as progress has been made.

Auto electrician came round yesterday and 30 minutes later the car started.

Basically a fuse had gone (which I checked and thought were okay “must have missed”
A wire next to the coils had shard which must have been done when replaced.

Immobiliser is okay just need a new button on the fob.
Tried the starting of the car within 20 seconds and fired up no issue.

The passenger side central locking motor apparently needs replacement.

The reason the paper clip test would not work for me apparently was down to the fuse
And the engine light would not work.

Now to the next issue, the auto electrician said the engine did not sound right “tapping”
It is booked in at garage on 23 Oct (earliest they can check)
Basically he thinks the air compressors not right, regulating oil flow and might need a new
Valve or something more serious?

I have not driven yet, to see how she drives regarding misfire, but hopefully will tomorrow after I
Have topped up coolent and anti-freeze. Can anyone recommend what to use? I guess a trip to Halfords.

Thanks
Jamie

[Fredjohn]

Use the good old fashioned blue antifreeze: Glycol. Do not under any circumstances buy the modern pink OAT.

Not sure what your electrician means by air compressor as I don't think there is one. If he means the turbo it does not run when car is cold or stationary!

The tappets however can be a bit noisy until the engine is warmed up.

[Rambo]

And check that you don't have the pink OAT anti freeze in before topping up with the blue or green ethylene glycol as the 2 are not compatible

I would suggest draining out the old stuff anyway. Then flushing with water and draining again before adding the new coolant, suitably diluted for your requirements.