Engine Hunting

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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Thu 28.08.2008, 14:00

RayD wrote:This is a sad tale Mike,

Presumably after a month its cost a fair amount to get nowhere.

Would it be worth preparing a checklist of all the things it might be, and get the garage to tick off all the ones they’ve eliminated, and how?

Starting with...

Compression test
Spark plugs
HT Leads
Coils
Fuel pressure

and so on



Hi Ray, thanks. Yes it is a sorry tale and seems set to get worse. The garage put in a new clutch assembly and water pump and belt - OK the clutch was pretty noisy. That and probably something towards their time for trying all they know about Elan SE's came to just under £2k!! The net result is the car, although improved regarding the hunting, is now much worse than it was when I took it to them. They have fitted new plugs and I know they tested the leads and coils with the water spray thingy. But the car was good under clear road conditions and only a pig in traffic. Now it's a pig all the time. They tell me they replaced just about everything even remotely involved, and showed me a box of sensors and tubes which are going back to Lotus Cars UK after trying them all. I will ask them about compression and fuel pressure tests and see what they say.

Continued in my next.........

Mike
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Thu 28.08.2008, 14:23

Enright wrote:It sounds very suspicious - they very rarely run that hot - usually it's around the 1/8 mark.
If the thermostat fails in the closed position you get a cold reading because the sensor is on the opposite side, and if it fails open then the engine just runs cool.
To be getting to such a temperature on a regular basis it almost sounds like the cooling system has been blocked.
That paperclip test will make for interesting reading.


Hello Enright, well, the car ran cool as it should, before all these sensor changes but now it runs 3/4 up the scale. The paper clip test revealed a Code 33 and that was the only one recorded. The engine light comes and goes now whereas it didn't show at all before all this testing took place. Also, the boost gauge needle keeps flying up and down the dial for no known reason. The acceleration is so flat that the only way to increase speed is to back off the pedal after the fusilade of backfires, when the car goes off like a scalded cat, only to fall flat again at the next pedal movement. The Code 33 (MAP) needs further investigation, although the garage swear they tried a new one. A different Lotus dealer (Frosts) apparently fitted a sort of restrictor valve in the vacuum tube from the intake manifold to the sensor (this was in the time of the previous owner). My garage took it out when I first went to them, but it made little difference to the hunting problem. Now they have reinstated it, being the only way to stop the engine revving up to 3000rpm every so often. Some tickover!! Anyway, the only thing I can do is to take the car back to them for further tests :roll:
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Thu 28.08.2008, 14:31

Doc Fizzix wrote:
Enright wrote:It sounds very suspicious - they very rarely run that hot - usually it's around the 1/8 mark.
If the thermostat fails in the closed position you get a cold reading because the sensor is on the opposite side, and if it fails open then the engine just runs cool.
To be getting to such a temperature on a regular basis it almost sounds like the cooling system has been blocked.
That paperclip test will make for interesting reading.


Hmmm... :?

Have you replaced the temperature sensor? I still say to check to make sure the secondaries are working first, that is what the symptoms sound like but a malfunctioning temperature sensor can cause a list of strange behavior


Hi again Doc. All I can say is the little nubby you described jumped up and down with the revving of the engine and the engineer said it would be doing what it is there for. Who am I to argue? The MAT sensor was changed together with all the others, but to no avail. So we are back on the original sensor now. I plan to return the car to the garage as soon as I can. We shall see!!! :cry:
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby ailwyn » Thu 28.08.2008, 15:22

I'm sorry but I'd play f*** with them for charging you £2k and not fixing the car... what a p*ss take.

Do you have a BBR kit installed? Check behind the air filter trashcan, on the rear of the shelf you should see a little circular device with a couple of wires and 2 hoses, one hose coming from somewhere towards the rear of the engine and the other going down under the trashcan and running up the intercooler pipe to the turbo. Check that these connections are present.

The only reason to stick a restrictor in the MAP line is to fool the ecu into not seeing the true boost... i.e. a FCD (Fuel Cut Defeater), and generally the only reason to have one of them is to enable you to boost above the ECU limits.

It does sound like something is wrong with the temp reading... do the fans come on when it's at 3/4?

The turbo needle having a mind of it's own is usually a sign of a bad earth, unless of course this co-incides with you moving the throttle?

Do you have a laptop? If so, get yourself an elanscan cable and hook it up to the ecu, this will log all of the sensor data seen by the ECU and will probably give some idea of where the problem lies, especially watching the coolant temp from cold, it will also give an indication of having an FCD as long as you can maintain boost for long enough to hit it's limit.
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby ailwyn » Thu 28.08.2008, 15:31

An off the wall thought, is your wastegate is stuck closed... could this combined with a FCD cause the turbo to spin up uncontrolled, forcing so much air into the system that it's choking the engine, thereby causing the misfire?
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Wed 27.05.2009, 14:40

Hello all, after many months, many tears and many pounds (sterling) the Lotus Engineers have returned the car to the state it was in when I took it to them last June/July. That is, except that now the mirrors are not adjustable, the engine temperature/fuel gauge combo have stopped working and the hunting is still there. I gave the car to Colas Mechanical Services in Lewes who sorted the mirrors and the gauges. They also found the Throttle By-pass valve was missing - much hissing! A new one costs about £6 and I got same from Frosts (Brighton). Now the car has a good performance, much like it should be - except for the bluddy hunting which they could not cure. I have decided to live with that, and the Elanscan (thanks so much Geoff) now gives sensible readings. Colas also found the offside front brake was binding and had almost shed the pads!!! The disc was trashed so a new disc and new pads put that right. However, the brakes are pretty lousy even after bedding in the new pads. I guess I had better go to a brake thread with this one. Many thanks to all who have commiserated with me over the engine problems and offered excellent advice, See you all on another page perhaps?

Kind regards,

Mike
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby Jackonicko » Wed 27.05.2009, 16:06

and check the CAS. Mine was bent, and caused all sorts of symptoms, and no-one correctly diagnosed the problem - not Gerald at GST, not Steve at SW, and no fault codes, either.
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Wed 27.05.2009, 17:40

Jackonicko wrote:and check the CAS. Mine was bent, and caused all sorts of symptoms, and no-one correctly diagnosed the problem - not Gerald at GST, not Steve at SW, and no fault codes, either.


Thanks for that. I will see if I can find such a problem. In what way was the CAS bent?
Mike.
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby Jackonicko » Wed 27.05.2009, 18:00

Image

I don't know how it happened ......


But when people report that even a bit of radial play in the CAS, or slight bearing wear, can cause a ragged, uneven idle, nightmare overboost, and ragged acceleration, (all without a fault code) it strikes me that checking the CAS might be a useful FIRST check, not a final resort after spending hours (and hundreds of pounds) changing coil packs, leads, plugs and Hall sensor.
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby airwolf929 » Sat 02.01.2010, 17:01

Well Guys n' Gals, standby to be educated (I don't accuse you all of being UNeducated, but you are probably not aware of the following). I am about to bring the saga of the hunting engine to a close. Having spent £thousands on this car still no-one had a clue as to why it was doing it. I got totally fed up with taking the car here, there and just about everywhere, running up bills all the time for no improvement. So, I am a retired High Voltage Electrician (11kv AC). I know a little about DC in vehicles, but am no expert and have not wanted to rummage in amongst the festoons of wire behind the glove box. However, desperation decreed I should try to find out what was going on for myself. The Elanscan was confusing everyone, including me, so I did not pursue that line. Then, whilst spending more money on parts for the braking system, I was talking to Steve of S C Sportscars and mentioned the hunting problem. He didn't know what was causing it either but he said something that got me thinking. He said he had a feeling that sometimes this occurred when the ECM had been chipped. Now I know mine had not been 'chipped' because I have another ECM and, in any case, a new one had been tried with no result. So I poked about, gingerly, amongst the wiring and found a mysterious package wrapped in foam. It had four wires plugged into it. It turned out it was a Piggy-Back ECM! When I unplugged it the engine ran smoothly. Hurrah!!! I thought. I've cracked it. Well, I was a bit previous here because when I drove the car it was OK until much of a load came on the engine, like changing up to third and fourth, or going up hill, when it coughed and spluttered and tried to stall. Gentle use of the throttle and dropping down the box helped a bit and at least got me home. I found the engine light was on all the time and so I produced my trusty paperclip and a code 34 came up. I took the car to the workshop and told them the story. Unfortunately, they misunderstood what I said and fitted a new MAP Sensor. No result. Then a sub-contracting vehicle electrician came on the scene. He phoned me and asked for the full gory tale and when I mentioned the piggyback unit he said the wires would have been cut from the main ECM and diverted to the pbu. He was dead on! He connected the wires back to the main ECM and BINGO, ALL IS WELL! The car now performs as Mother Lotus intended. End of Saga! Armed with this new knowledge you can now sort out any other poor sod who comes on the Forum with a hunting engine.

My sincere thanks to all of you who tried desperately to help me in the beginning. Where I could I followed all your suggestions with no avail. What I cannot understand is how the 'experts' at Lotus and three of their dealers didn't find the b....y piggyback unit (I didn't know there was such a thing myself), when they had the car for weeks on end. So now you know!!! :D :-D :) :( :shock: :? :oops: :roll: :twisted: :idea:

Mike.
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby HJ2 » Sat 02.01.2010, 17:48

Ah, That's good news! Happy driving!
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got
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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby RayD » Sat 02.01.2010, 18:06

Well done Mike, Hopefully some of the money you've spent will have improved the car in the long term.

You may have solved another mystery in the process.... On similar occasions of suggesting people should put the car into service mode to see how it runs at tickover I've often wondered how the car would run on the road ... if I’m not mistaken that’s what you were doing between cutting the wires on the PBU and reconnecting them to the ECM?

People who are better informed on such matters might be able to confirm if the two things are the same.


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Re: Engine Hunting

Postby Relevance » Thu 17.08.2023, 00:04

Reviving a long forgotten thread....

I am the current owner of this vehicle and wanted to pass along some of the additional info that I have gleaned from going through the paperwork that came with the car related to this issue if it should happen to anyone else.

Email between Mike and a Lotus Representative regarding Factory ECM Repairs
Image

Excerpt of Receipt from the shop Mike had mentioned had the car for a month+ (I have no idea what half of it says)
Image

Glad to see that this problem has been solved and was so well documented long before I came to own the car because there were certainly thousands spent tracking down this issue that I have receipts for.
Jake

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